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Preschool education

Get advice from other Mumsnetters to find the best nursery for your child on our Preschool forum.

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Original poster

3yo still in nappies-are pre-school right to refuse him?

27 replies

FLIER · 01/02/2007 13:13

A friend of mine has a wee boy whi was due to start pre-school in January. However, she was contacted the week before he was due to start to advise that, as he was still in nappies, he couldn't start yet.
Now, I believed that this was now against the law, that nurseries could bot discriminate in this way.
Can anyone tell me what their experiences have been, and where I can find out if this is the law so it can be taken further (if need be)
Thanks

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StrawberrySnowflakes · 01/02/2007 13:15

i think they can?, dd's nursery do its because they cant 'clean' them for legal reasons as well as child 2 teacher ratio.

tortoiseSHELL · 01/02/2007 13:16

They can't legally discriminate. Some places have said that they'll phone the parent to come in if they need changing - don't know about this, but I know dd's pre-school said they legally have to have them nappies or no nappies! Otherwise it is discrimination.

brimfull · 01/02/2007 13:19

My ds started pre-school in pull ups and others have since.They don't like changing dirty bottoms and I was called in to do that once but I know they do for another little boy (whose mother osn't as much of a pushover as me).
They should have an equal oppotunities policy,ask to read it.

coppertop · 01/02/2007 13:19

I agree with Tortoiseshell. I think they can ask parents to come in to change their child but can't refuse to take a child because they're still in nappies. Otherwise children like my 2 boys would never have been able to go to pre-school. Ds1 was in nappies until a couple of months after his 4th birthday. Ds2 is nearly 4 and is still in nappies.

coppertop · 01/02/2007 13:20

X-posted with Ggirl.

adath · 03/02/2007 20:54

They cannot refuse to take a child on that basis I read the regulations somewhere but cannot remember where I will have a dig around. When I went to visit dd's nursery she was in a pull up that day as she had been a bit accident prone after illness and they did say that they cannot refuse the place but our pre-school do phone for the parent to go and change the child if they soil themselves.

Cazya · 04/02/2007 10:52

Surely it would take longer to clean up a child who had an accident in pants than one who was wearing a nappy? Toilet accidents are only to be expected when children are in the foundation stage (3 to 5 year olds) , even if they've been out of nappies for ages. I don't see how they can say it's a staffing issue. I would have thought it would be a fairly regular occurrence to have to help a little one in the loo. It's all part of learning to be more independent, but it takes time, patience and help when needed. My son's preschool had a no nappies policy, but I sent him in pullups anyway, and nobody even noticed (he was partly trained - didn't poo in them).

Pinotmum · 04/02/2007 11:06

As I understand it you can't just refuse a child for not being toilet trained. The parent can be asked to come in and change the child. However if adequate facilities are not available for changing e.g a church hall children in nappies can be refused but this is rare because most parents will agree to return. There is a staff/child ratio issue as staff are taken off the floor. I work in a pre-school where nappies are changed (for a £1.00 fee) and all parents agree to this rather than return. However we have purpose built facilities with separate toilets and changing area (with running water in this area) so we can offer this service.

burstingbug · 04/02/2007 11:14

We're sending DS1 to a pre-school in November when he'll be 2yrs.9mths. That's the youngest age they take and they state that all children must be toilet trained before allowing them into pre-school. He's been potty training for a month now and we rarely have any accidents at home or in nursery. Not yet been shopping or to the park without a nappy yet.

colditz · 04/02/2007 11:17

they can't refuse a place, but they can make it miserably awkward to have a child still in nappies.

BTW what do they do if a child craps himself into pants? What if a parent just can't come? surely it's neglectful to leave a child covered in faeces?

I don't think anyone who deals with the under 5's should be able to say "Ew no I'm not dealing with bodily fluids!"

QueenEagle · 04/02/2007 11:18

What's the difference between changing poo which is in a nappy and poo which is in pants?

What do they do if the parent's are unable to come back to change them?

I seem to recall that preschools cannot discriminate in this way any more.

Pinotmum · 04/02/2007 11:43

It's having adequate changing facilities that's the problem not the staff refusing to change the child. You are not allowed to change the child in the main room or on the toilet floor. You have to have a separate changing area with running water. A side room or store room is not acceptable. In the PS I work we have a disabled adult toilet with sink and changing mats so we are OK. Alot of church hall pre-schools can't offer this so they ask the parent to be able to return. Ds went to a preschool like this but never pooed when there. I don't know how long a child would be left in soiled nappy or pants but it's not ideal for the child or anyone else really.

colditz · 04/02/2007 17:23

Well it's ridiculous that the staff aren't allowed to use the toilet floor, as long as they have a changing mat.

It makes me very grateful for the non-red-tapeness of ds1's preschool!

adath · 05/02/2007 09:59

Our pre-school did say that the reason they are not allowed to change poo is because of all the paperwork involved in actually being allowed to touch your child in that area to clean them up. If one fo the children in nappies poos parent is called if a child has an poo in pants parent is called.
I did ask what would happen if me or my emergency contact were not avaliable and they did say obviously they would not be so horrible to leave a child in that state but I am not sure that has ever happened to them as yet.

I just think it is shocking that things have come to this TBH, I have to sign at the atart of the school year to give my permission for them to put a plaster on, the staff in nurseries of 2.5-4 year olds are not allowed to cuddle a child who is upset for fear of recriminations and accusations they are still babies ffs. Rediculous.

FioFio · 05/02/2007 10:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

sideways · 05/02/2007 10:03

In dd's pre-school they change the little ones on a mat on the floor in the toilet area.

Bumblelion · 05/02/2007 10:10

My DD started mainstream nursery in September 2005. At that time, she had a statement but was still in pull-ups. It was only in May last year when she was aged 4 years 7 months that she became toilet trained - early for a child with Sotos syndrome. She had a special helper who was her one-to-one person and she kept an eye on my DD and changed her regularly. Because I work part-time, she also went to a 'daycare' nursery whilst still in pull-ups. They never had an issue with changing her as required.

Because of my DD's requirements, the school has now had a disabled toilet installed so she was able to have that bit more privacy.

She is now in reception, has had one accident since September but this is not unusual for children in reception class.

It was never an issue that she would not be allowed to start nursery whilst still not clean or dry.

frances5 · 05/02/2007 14:15

If a nursery accepts vouchers for three and four year olds then they have to accept children with special needs. This includes incontainent children. Lack of staff or poor changing facilites is not an excuse.

I find it shocking that a nursery charges extra for a child in nappies. Would the same nursery had charged extra for my son having walking problems?

If there is a problem then the parents can contact Ofsted. A private nursery might think they can do as they like. However if they don't follow certain rules then they can lose funding

poppy101 · 05/02/2007 14:16

Cant refuse if it is a state nursery in a school.

catesmum · 05/02/2007 18:55

there's new legislation covering this under the Disability Discrimination Actt. We had to rewrite all our policies, and the memo that came from county covered all schools, playgroups, nurseries etc.

They CAN'T say they have to be toilet trained, as bowel control is a developmental stage that can be delayed in some children (hence the disability thing). Playgroups/nurseries etc also can't contact a parent to ask them to come in and change a soiled nappy/pants as this would mean a child remaining in the mess until the parent arrived, and this comes under the child protection thing

Original poster

FLIER · 07/02/2007 08:39

Wow. I've been off line and just checked back on the message. Can't believe how many replies there are.

Thanks to everyone who replied, I'll print these responses off and let my friend have them today.

Flier

OP posts:

GreatGooglyMoogly · 07/02/2007 22:01

Not sure if this helps at all? (I don't think incontinence actually is covered by the DDA as it is not a disability.)

PinkTulips · 07/02/2007 22:03

dd's palyschool doesn't care less, and she's in reuseables. she's only 2 though butthey go up to 5 in age and i don't think there's a cut off age for nappies

mymatemax · 14/02/2007 23:20

ds playgroup takes any child toilet trained or not & those in nappies including DS (AGE 4 with sn) are changed in the adult loo on a mat.
Whatever the rules I would not want to send my child to any nursery who didn't welcome my child nappies & all,

NurseyJo · 14/02/2007 23:24

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