Outdoor nurseries

[Lindaholt]

For anyone interested in outdoor education, especially nurseries. We run an award winning outdoor nursery in Fife.

We're currently engaged in a dispute with the quango/ regulator over the issue of hand hygiene. Our nursery is fully nomadic, and focusses on child-led play. Because of this we have no regular access to running water. Health Protection Scotland has issued a guideline insisting that soap and running water must be used to wash the children's hands at numerous points during the day - before arrival, before going home, at mealtimes, after (and before) toileting, after sneezing, etc.

We use gel-impregnated wipes which have the support of leading scientists and are standardly used e.g. in NHS hospitals in Scotland and at other public sites such as those run by Historic Scotland. None of which, it seems, is good enough for the regulators. Our rating has suffered as a result even though the nursery is acknowledged as a UK-leading initiative (first fully outdoor nursery in the UK).

I'm an outdoor kind of person. A walker, runner, cyclist and camper. I'm also an experienced and qualified Nursery Nurse.

I can't really see much difference in a nursery that is always outside to one that is always inside. You say you focus on child-led play. What if a child wants to play indoors? You're not giving the children a choice. Being Child Led is about giving children a real choice in what they play/learn with because children learn best when doing what they are interested in.

Do NHS hospitals in Scotland say wipes/gel is a good replacement for washing, or as an additional thing.

Does sound a bit like Health & Safety gone mad. Don't the parents get a say in this? What exactly is wrong with kids getting a bit dirty anyway?

How do you cope with toileting BTW, especially when toilet training?

I used to work at a nursery who used gel before meals. You drop a bit of gel on the child's hands and they'd wipe it all over. You really cant guarantee the child has got it everywhere. And what if a child has got some squirrel poo on their fingers? The gel goes on it and kills 99.9% of germs, but you still have the solid but clean lump of poo on their fingers. A tap washes stuff off.

@TiggyD.
Well I guess that traditional nursery practitioners might feel uncomfortable at people who do things differently but I don't think a bit of diversity is a bad thing. There are only 2 outdoor nurseries in the country, after all... Oddly enough, not getting enough time indoors isn't one of the complaints the kids make! Most only go 1 day a week, and none more than 3. They get more than enough time indoors during the rest of the week. On child-led play, the best thing is to see the nursery in action for yourself. There's a great film of the Secret Garden, Into the MIddle of Nowhere, that I hope will be available online soon.

On hand hygiene: NO method of cleaning, including water, is failsafe. Our 5 year old had far fewer infections from the outdoor nursery than he had when he was at an indoor, as he was for 2 years. Ecoli, for instance, can be spread as water droplets in diarrhoea that circulate in indoor play areas. Exposure to outdoors also increases immunity.

this read more like an advertisement for your business tbh.

i hate those hand gel thing they dry my skin out and dd always reacts to them.

screw the rating, surely ifyou are so alternative and forward thinking it shouldn't matter.

@CerealOffender. Not an ad, it's not my business, am just a parent and co-director. I have no financial stake in it at all and it's not for profit anyway. But the lead practitioner is keen that the model is publicised and official ratings affect that, rightly or wrongly.

ok sorry.

It sounds brilliant. My younger son's do Forest School at school and love it. If we had had an outdoor nursery here I would have sent them. We went on a Horse Boy camp this year- only 4 days but the younger 2 really blossomed being outside the whole time. DS2 who fusses about vegetables was tucking into wild food and still munches away on gorse flowers when we go out and tries to get me to pick him nettles.

I don't think a bit of squirrel poo would be dangerous would it?

whoops stray apostrophe!

@Saintly
Bear in mind squirrel poo may contain nuts.

digested nuts surely?

A couple of web links for anyone who's interested. Find the Secret Garden outdoor nursery at:bit.ly/BarJZ and our Twitter page at bit.ly/d5hkrl. There is also some interesting stuff on outdoor education on the Children in Scotland pages: bit.ly/9OZCqo.

Oh it looks fabulous. My son (in year 1) was really looking forward to his wellie walk today at school (they have a bit of garden that's kept wild) and he can't wait for forest school to start again.

" NO method of cleaning, including water, is failsafe"
No but soap and water has been shown to be the best way to clean your hands

I can't believe squirrel poo mixed in with some of that gel stuff is clean anyway urgh :o

I don't understand how these things work? Where do the children sleep and eat and go to the toilet?

And if it's tipping it down I don't care how well rainsuited you are, it's going to be miserable

Actually these nurseries are really common in Scandanavian countries and they are out in all weathers, some very wet and freezing. If appropriately dressed, it really isn't miserable. There are some fab programmes on teachers tv. You should see 4 year olds doing 5k hikes. Now they do not have sleep problems!

They have shelters for when its tipping down.

I always used to take ds1 to the park when tipping down (no-one else there - ideal for him).

Forest school at ds2 and ds3's school goes ahead when its tipping down as well. The kids don't seem to mind.

What is this thing about squirrel poo!? I don't think Tilly has encountered any during his 2 years in the woods. Soap and water is "best practice" according to health protection Scotland, but this is disputed by some experts, e.g. Hugh Pennington, who did the inquiry into the Godstone petting farm ecoli outbreak. Anyway HPS has a bit of an OCD problem around washing - they recommend that the kids wash with soap & water after sneezing .

There is a tent in the woods the children use and other tarps etc they shelter under. Mostly they roam in deciduous woodland.

actually...you are convincing me :o

I just mean if they get their hands covered in mud/poo then a gel wipe is unlikely to get it all off?

Does a toddler poo in the woods then?

Weren't they thinking of reintroducing wolves in Scotland?

I'm a Forest School teacher but am very open to criticisms of the system, I think it's an excellent premise but many of the self imposed restrictions and ideas practised by some are not productive IMHO.Most of the Forest School in this country is a million miles removed from the Scandanavian original in any case and is really more about outdoor or nature education in many schools.
Linda, would you be interested in talking about your nursery to me at some stage? I'm also in the final year of a related degree and am focussing a lot of my research in this area. I'd appreciate your input

Forest schools sound great. I wish there was one near me that I could go look at. Are there many forest nurseries Tippy?

Tiggy, FS is getting more common as a "lesson" in school, mostly primary and junior. Tbh, when I've worked with nursery age it has been a pure nightmare getting the staff to buy into the idea of acceptable risks and working with tools or outdoors.But as the EYFS starts to really push the idea of children being outdoors 50% of the time and indoor-outdoor freeflow I hope it will get easier.

I can't do links so have stopped trying but if you google outdoor nurseries you can see some. Lots of private ones and a couple of chains as far as I know, I'll post the names when I remember.

oooh tippychooks I think you might be my son's forest school teacher :)

or sons'