Funding question - I doubt this is allowed but what can I do about it?

[Runoutofideas]

My dd's pre-school seems to have become very money grabbing lately and it is starting to annoy me.

All sessions from Sept are 4 hours long, making it impossible to access 15 hours free without paying for additional hours. The additional hours are charged at around £6.50 each. They have also recently demanded a £35 "registration fee", despite the fact that we paid this last year when she joined and she is simply going into her rising 4 year. They also make an additional sessional charge for snacks.

I'm sure they must be breaking the rules, however their attitude seems to be "if you don't like it, take her out". The only other local pre-school is full with a long waiting list - as is this one. They say if the council impose the regulations on them they will have to close... Is there anything I can do to force them to offer what they should, without removing my child? (She is really happy there and took ages to settle in....)

As far as I am aware, the free entitlement must be available to everyone. That is, they can OFFER 4 hours but also let you attend for 3 hours for free if that's what you want. They are not allowed to impose a top-up.

That said, it's a very confusing time for early years settings and they may simply be mistaken in their interpretation.

Your local authority is the place to ring.

The nursery school that my DC attended imposed a top up, but it only worked out at £2.40 an hour.

If you weren't willing to pay the top up then your child didn't get a place, as all 5 sessions a week had to be taken up and paid for.

"13.5 Providers should not levy any fee in respect
of the free entitlement nor should they
charge parents fees in advance for the free
entitlement to be refunded at a later date.
Providers that normally charge fees should
reduce the fees by the amount that they
would normally charge for those sessions
if the child was not accessing a free place."

"13.6 Providers can charge for additional
services. The level of such fees is a private
matter for agreement between the provider
and the parent. However, parents should
not be required or expected to take up
additional services in order to access a
free place. Parents who do choose to take
up additional services should not be
charged any more for those services than
parents of children who are not accessing
a free place. Above all, arrangements for
charging for additional services should be
clear and transparent." Code of Practice on provision of Free Nursery Education Places

So, the preschool can't expect you to pay for the extra hour. You can choose to pick your child up 1 hour early on one session.

Also, the registration fee - depends what for. They can charge it if that fee is optional and covers several items of uniform/book bag/ drinks bottle, for example, but not if it is a fee for the place.

WRT the snacks, I think that this is wrong, too. It should be completely free, and if not, you should be able to opt to send in your own snack.

They are taking the piss not allowed to do that. They are not allowed to force you to pay a top up or a registration fee. They may invite you to pay for an extra hour or whatever, but you must be able to take the free sessions only.

Ring the local authority.

All you have to do is contact your local council early years dept.

another link here

As someone who used to be on the committee of our charitable pre-school we couldn't break even on the amount of funding given per child! Hence the need to charge for an additional half an hour pay day and for snacks.

Is it a charity or private pre-school?

moaningminniewhingesagain's link says further down:

What the new Code of Practice means

The free entitlement of 15 hours a week over no fewer than 38 weeks must be free at the point of delivery. Therefore there must be:

• No fees charged for the 15 hours

• No conditions of access - for example, parents should not have to buy more hours or pay for lunch to secure a place.

• No other fees in relation to the free entitlement, for example registration or uniform

• No deposit - parents must not have to pay up-front for the free entitlement.

• No session longer than ten hours

• No session shorter than 2.5 hours

• Up to 12.5 hours over two days

It is a private pre-school which has just moved into brand new facilities with brand new equipment and they say they could not afford to keep running without the extra charges. Is this likely to be the case?
There are no nurseries attached to the primary schools near us, so the only options are private pre-schools (the other one is church run and doesn't charge anything, but I would imagine is subsidised by the church in terms of hire of the hall etc), or nurseries.
I don't want the place to have to close which is why I am reluctant to call the council, however I feel they may be ripping us off instead as everyone feels grateful to have a place....

I doubt very much they are ripping you off, they are probably struggling to break even tbh.

Presumably you could take 4 sessions per week and just pay for the one additional hour? We used to charge £10 per term towards snacks which was always lots of choices including fresh fruit etc.

It varies from LEA to LEA here in Surrey (gets a high grant level) a year ago it was around £9.20 for 2.5 hours, the average cm charge is £6.50 per hour in the same area and a good pre-school still hasmore staff than the minimum ratio to cover for sickness, breaks, observations etc

Regardless of the whys and wherefores, the rules. They are breaking the code by charging these additional fees, and if the council find out, they can have their entire funding revoked. So, your best option is to print out the code, highlight the relevant sections, show them, and say that you will be forced to go to the council if they don't ammend their policies.

They can't make up the rules as they go along. Pre-schools up and down the country (including mine) are struggling and not breaking the funding rules.

Yes I could do 4 sessions and pay for one hour - as it is I'll pay for two hours as I've chosen 2 mornings and one full day. That's another slightly annoying thing - a full day is 8 hours and we can only claim 6 through the nursery grant, although according to the council the max is 6 1/2 hours a day, so there's another half an hour they've clawed back. So I'll actually only use 14 hours of grant but pay for two hours....

I was prepared to live with this, until they tried to hit me with the £35 registration fee on top. (They claim it's for the admin involved in taking children's details on allergies etc required for health and safety reasons - sounds like rubbish to me as surely if your child had developed a food allergy since filling in the same form a year earlier you would have already told them rather than waiting for the new registration - grrr!

Snacks are 50p per session, which seems a lot for a glass of water and a slice or two of apple and 4 raisins!

Snack provision is very high, also you can claim for up to 10 hours in one day so that is a load of rubbish - it may be that now but from September you can claim 8 hours in one go.

I did write a post that got lost, we stated very clearly in our info pack about the rules and regulations and if anyone wanted to come and collect their child after 2.5 hours then they could IYSWIM.

Thanks for clarifying everything - I'm still unsure what to do though really. They are lovely people and I do think it's a fantastic pre-school, but I am unhappy about the stealth charges creeping in. We are in the fortunate position of being able to play the £35 with no problem, but what about people who can't afford it. This would effectively exclude them from pre-school which is highly unfair. Maybe it's just down to the wording - if they'd asked for a £35 voluntary contribution I would have paid it quite happily. What would the council do initially if I call them?

Perhaps you should just write a letter including a copy of the rules and regulations and lay out how that you are concerned that they are breaking them and it could cost them the ability to offer funded sessions, end the letter with a "I look forward to hearing how you intend to resolve this issue"

Does you pre school employ experienced "older" staff. The money paid by the council does not cover the salerys on NVQ level 3 nursery teachers for example so they have to claw back the costs by asking parents to pay for extending the sessions. They do have to let you do just the 15 hours but can make it difficult and they really should be honest with you that the extra money will cover smaller ratio's and more experienced staff. We had this at our nursery and I have just got places for my gilrs at another pre school where they will do shorter sessions but it will be free. Their old nursery wanted to charge £4 for any extra 20 mins!

Yes they are "older" and I think mostly highly qualified. If this is genuinely what the money is going towards then I have no problem paying it. They just don't seem to be very open about it.

I feel exactly as you do runoutofideas. I was also a bit fed up of filling in these silly forms for a third time for September (ds started when it was still at the other place) I was also reluctant to say whether I wanted to pick up additional sessions so soon for Jan/April as I just don't know yet. Ds currently does 2 6 hr days and 1 half day but I thought 8 hours was simply too long. I have opted therefore for 4 half days.
It is going to be very expensive to send ds 2 when the time comes at nearly £7 x 8 hours a week. As you say though, the pre school is fantastic and so are the staff.
I'm wondering if the £35 is also for newsletters etc? Still a rip off. Oh and when I talked to the manager (won't name her here!) I expressed my concerns at the lack of snack and she assured me that it was a substantial snack but when I ask ds what he has had for snack he tells me a biscuit? At the old place it was definitely a breadstick and a piece of fruit shared between at least 3 hence why I brought it up!

CHST - Do you know me? It definitely sounds like the same pre-school but I'm not sure where I've let it slip! I don't really care if I'm not anonymous though - anything I've said I would put my real name too - just intrigued!

CHST - I missed your note to me on the other thread. Did you get anywhere asking for a meeting? I haven't heard anything about one....

My childcare (full time inc 3 meals) is £800 pm. Anything free would help me. And no I do not live in London / Edinburgh / Glasgow / Manchester / other expensive city.

Lucy - I think it's very different if you need full time childcare. This is pre-school sessions which I choose to send my daughter to for her own benefit rather than because I need childcare as such. If a child went to my dd's pre-school for 40 hours a week, claiming 15 hours free and thus paying for 25 hours it would still cost £175 per week, not much less than your £800 per month, without any meals included. It's trying to compare two different things though, I think.

No I didn't get anywhere. I don't know who you are, just realised from previous threads that our kids go tho the same pre school. She basically blamed the council for leaving it so late to advise, said other pre schools had made offers and had to retract them. I still think they could have talked about the possibilities; they must have known they were going to be told they could not charge any extra for the 15 hours. We had a letter addressed to all parents after and it looked liked she had used my letter and answered every gripe I had. Like you say, far too late to go to another pre school. I doubt there will be a meeting now, too late. I hope in future they will be more honest and communication will be better. I was glad that they finally admitted that money was a factor instead of hiding it behind what was "best for the children"
Also she said there were pitfalls to the flexibility of children coming and going eg arriving at 8:30, 9:00 12:00 12:30 and 1 and leaving at different times yet she contradicted herself saying there will be flexible pick up and drop off times because of school runs etc. Hello I am not paying for 4 hours and accessing only 3 1/2 every time just so I can drop off a kid to school.
It's all about the money and I made clear I knew that and could see through it all