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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Once a c-section, always a c-section?

103 replies

clucks · 09/06/2002 15:38

I had an awful time with my first delivery as contractions would be intense and then disappeaar completely and come back erratically, this went on for 4 days after what was my waters breaking but midwives mistook for show. Anyway, foetal distress was detected and I had an emergency c-section. The baby was covered in meconium and did not have a very high agpar score. The whole thing was awful, the recovery the worst part of it. I had visions of being an earth mother and delivering naturally etc. etc.

This has left me wondering if I am anatomically unsuited to natural delivery (pregnancy was a sail). Should I try again or plan a c-section or even bother with a 2nd child. I would be grateful for any advice. I feel a bit selfish planning my family around an unwanted abdominal wound. Anyone else with similar experiences?

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elliott · 20/11/2002 15:46

I found the reference to the survey (of female obstetricians in London - apparently 31% of them wanted an elective c/s!!!!) but it is in quite an obscure journal. However on the way I found this reference to a debate in the BMJ which is free access online and thought it might be of interest. Haven't worked out how to do links yet though....

bmj.com/cgi/content/full/317/7156/462

elliott · 20/11/2002 15:49

try this

elliott · 20/11/2002 15:50
Smile
aloha · 20/11/2002 16:33

I thought that was very interesting!

JanZ · 20/11/2002 16:46

When my best friend - now a GP, but doing her rotation at the time - had her first, she insisted that the consultant (who she was actually working for, as she was doing her Obs and Gynae bit) did not particpate and that she had a midwife led delivery. Apparently he still wanted to be in the room (just in case!) - but had to stand by the wall and not do anything!

pupuce · 20/11/2002 23:23

Aloha : Placenta praevia and breech are quite different, there is no hesitation... a real placenta praevia has to have a c-section as for a breech you can very well have a vaginal delivery.
With all due respect to your beliefs, going for a vaginal delivery goes - in my book at least - much further than a woman's own emotional experience !
I am a tad reluctant to argue this on a board because I don't want to alienate ceasarian "women"... it is NOT my intention...
I have cut and pasted from a previous post below.... because I do want to make the point a ceasarean for me is more about allowing the baby to be born the way it was meant to be (unless medical problem)... you could argue that a c-section is about allowing some women to have the emotional experinece they want... fear of pain, etc...

a c-section is not the way babies were meant to be born, they do not get through their placenta the massive release of oxytocyn and endorphins that the mother would naturally make in labour... these are important hormones - in the wild (and yes we are not animals!) , many species reject their off-spring when they are not born naturally because they haven't produced the hormone to love them... of course we are more evolved, and of course a mother of a cesarean baby will love her baby... but their are long term implications for such "deprivation" of hormones. There are now databases which put together studies of illnesses and diseases to see if there is indeed a correlation with the way the person was born (induction, forceps, cesarean,...) this is why more and more people are speaking out against ceasareans... and by the way -at the end of the day... a ceasarean is not safer for the mother than a VBAC.

pupuce · 20/11/2002 23:26

Elliott : I recently questioned Sheila Kitzinger on this VERY survey... this was her answer unedited:
It shows that all their training is in pathology, it is very sad. It reveals their fear, and they communicate this fear to midwives and mothers.

For the record I know Dr Michel Odent - found this survey alarming as well.... he didn't have a lot of positive things to say on the training of these doctors !

Juno · 21/11/2002 12:22

Am hugely interested in this thread, because I ended up having a caesarean despite starting off my labour at the lovely, fluffy Edgware birth centre. I was having strong, regular contractions but after about eight hours of them, I was told I'd only just entered labour proper (had dilated 1cm, apparently, which felt devastating!)

In the end was wheeled off to hospital where I had an epidural (the second one worked - as the doctor was trying to ram the needle in, he kept asking me if I was athlete because I had such a tough back!) Then I was pain free and on a drip (syntocinon?) for AGES before they finally said I was only about 6cm dilated and they were going to do a C-sec. I was so fed up by this time, I was just glad there was going to be some action! I don't think ds had engaged, either, but he wasn't in distress as I recall.

This was back in December 2001, so do you think it is too late to get a debriefing, or to find out why they had to do a C-sec? Is this kind of thing likely to happen again? I'd really like a VBAC just cos it's really inconvenient to add a sore wound to the list of woes a new mum has. I HATED being in hospital the two nights after the birth and begged them to let me home after that. Although the midwives were on call, I felt like I was being a pain when I did call them. And it was so horrible having to constantly get out of bed to feed/change ds - is this the new equivalent of giving kids cornflakes and toast after a tonsillectomy to encourage a quicker recovery?! I suffered from that, too!

Sorry to go on at length, but I slightly feel like my labour and birth are an unresolved issue.

aloha · 21/11/2002 13:14

I really don't mean to start a huge row, but to me, if the death rate of breech babies born vaginally is four times the rate of those born by c-section, it seems positively selfish to choose to try to deliver vaginally to me. I agree c-sections aren't safer for mothers, but electives in these conditions are proven to be equally as safe, with less risk of long term problems due to instrumental deliveries (which women have posted about on this site). I totally respect the work you do with women who have uncomplicated pregnancies and births and I am sure it must be very rewarding. But where the lives of unborn babies are at risk, it seems that the motto should really be safety first, don't you think? This isn't a 'too posh to push' issue, it is a matter of life and death.

SueW · 21/11/2002 13:16

Juno - you may find it useful to get a copy of your notes from the hospital. You can do this by ringing them or writing and asking for a copy under Data Protection rules, IIRC. You will have to pay for photocopying which might be quite a bit (5p/10p a sheet) but the access fee can be no more than £10, I think, because of data protection rules.

I know some people who have done this and it has been a useful exercise to go through what happened. In one case the hospital phoned to check exactly what the mum wanted as they had count lists of instruments used during the c-section and did she want those?

I keep meaning to get mine but haven't got around to it yet. That was six years ago. Debriefing and reflecting on m experience of my daughter's birth is part of my training as an antenatal teacher and the reading list is giving me a greater insight too!

pupuce · 21/11/2002 13:58

Yes Juno get a copy of your notes and read them with your next MW...
BTW - don't you guys all get told to photocopy your notes before you have to hand them over ? We all have copies here as we are always told this.
As you have already had strong contractions and all... I think you can potentially have an easy VBAC next time... It all depends if they know why you didn't dilate all that much and whether they were concerned about the baby's position... but again potentially you are absolutely fine.. 1 labour is different from the next one.

Aloha... At the end of the day we all do what we believe is best for OUR situation. So if you are expecting a breech and you feel that a C is what is bets than go for it.
I know that for myself (and this is not to say for my clients BTW) I would go for a vaginal delivery, I know some MW who are extremely experienced (and do home births of breeech even) and I even know an obstetrician who attempts (with success) footling breeches vaginally ! It all depends on the experience and confidence of the staff present at birth. In our maternirty unit... they do this frequently which I guess ensures they keep the practice.

In this obstertrician survey mentioned below they do talk about risks... and I agree... we live in a society where we do not accept risks such as delivery... and yet we drive and smoke, etc which are far riskier than some of these other things.... I am afraid we will beg to differ on this but stay mumsnet buddy anyway

WideWebWitch · 21/11/2002 23:53

Aloha, take your point but wonder if the skill of delivering breech babies vaginally is being lost since so few midwives are trained in this i.e the response to a breech baby is very often to go for a c section? Just wondered, anyone know?

aloha · 22/11/2002 09:05

Warning! Long post! OK, from what I have read and understood, the large scale study undertaken into c/s concluded that loss of specialist skills was almost certainly not the problem. It was more that no matter who is delivering them, breech babies do face a small but very significant risk in being born - and that mothers also faced possible health problems due to difficult and often instrumental deliveries, which often had a higher risk of causing long-term complications than elective c/s. The researchers did look at all kind of birth environments and deliveries and found the risk was always higher. When I got p/g I didn't actually go into it thinking I would have a c/s but it became clear very early on that I had no choice, if my ds or I were to survive at all. So, of course, I am thankful every single day for my c/s, which turned out, like most electives, to be straightforward, calm and, ultimately, wonderful and moving when I met my ds for the first time. I do sometimes (often!) wonder if we place too much emphasis on having a 'correct' birth experience (no pain relief, vaginal delivery, instant bonding etc) for ourselves which is a pressure in itself and makes some women feel like failures if they don't achieve all those things. My friend who recently had her first baby in three hours flat - no pain relief (due to speed not inclination!) - is the heroine of her NCT class. Lots of congratulations on doing it 'the best way', but as she says, 'It wasn't anything to do with me!'. Others who ended up having a c/s having planned for ecstatic hypno-birth (seriously) feel ashamed and as if they have had the 'wrong' kind of birth. I often read how we have 'stopped' looking forward to and enjoying birth. I have read a lot of literature from the 17th century onwards and I can't find any references to women (or men!) looking forward to a lovely birth experience. It was thought of as a scary ordeal (Eve's Curse etc) long before it was 'medicalised'. Mainly because women were terrified that at least one of them wouldn't survive. I do realise that improved hygiene made a difference, but the pain and complications from tearing and haemmoraghing weren't ever things women looked forward to. I wonder if anyone has any evidence to the contrary?
I am also interested in whether when looking at the costs of c/s v natural birth, how post-partum care is factored in here. Are restitching, incontinence care, and all the other things that mumsnetters mention factored into the cost? I honestly don't know if they are or not, but I suspect not.
I do have issues with the NCT's view of birth. I think the NCT is a very valuable and important organisation in so many ways, but the same friend who recently gave birth went to NCT antenatal classes were they were asked to role play different birth scenarios. The natural birth one was all about opening up like a flower, in the c/s one, the woman was asked to imagine lying helplessly on a table while the surgeon callously chats over her head about his golf games while carelessly slicing her open. I mean, talk about stereotypes! I didn't see any recognition in the literature that birth could be traumatic or that c/s could be a pleasant and very satisfying experience (quite the contrary - it's all about how the best you can hope for a sense of relief that you are alive!) and that is hard to read when you are facing a c/s for the birth of your child and have no choice. These things aren't 'just giving the facts' - a mantra I heard a lot from the NCT - they are very subjective and, IMO, slanted statements. As for recovery, my friend with the fast natural delivery (who feels great and would opt to do it again the same way, BTW) is only now, two weeks on, able to walk more than 100 yards without a lot of discomfort from stitches. I recovered just as fast - if not faster - from my very expertly done cs.
I won't pretend this isn't a cut and dried issue. But I think it does women no favours to imply (and this statement truly isn't directed at anyone on this site) that natural birth is always a lovely experience and that if it isn't, or you have another kind of delivery, that you have failed or had a second-class experience.
I'd never try to push a c/s on anyone. Quite a few of my p/g friends have asked me if I would recommend an elective c/s to them. I always say that I've never been in labour so I honesty can't pretend to know which is best for them and that there are pros and cons. I think the longer stay in hospital can be a big con - though I had already been in Kings for over a month so a few more days didn't make that much difference to me! And I know that not everyone recovers as fast or well as I did and warn that it isn't a totally pain-free option. But finally, I do think that how our babies arrive is of very little importance compared to what happens when they get here!

aloha · 22/11/2002 09:20

BTW, I am obviously NOT saying that natural birth can't be immensely satisfying and wonderful, and that even elective c/s can go wrong, just that the reverse can be true too and that I think it would help women if this was more widely acknowledged.

prufrock · 22/11/2002 10:52

I agree about the stereotypical view of natural birth good, c-section bad. I have actually been asked if I felt dissapointed in myself for having given in to a c-section so easily. Well I'm sorry, but after 44 hours of prostoglandin contractions and being only 1cm dilated, and with the added worry of increasing bile acid levels, I don't feel that I "gave in" at all - I was begging for a c-section. People have been symathetic to me, thinking that it was so awful for me to have a c-section - well it actually turned out to be the best bit of my entire pregnancy. It didn't affect my bonding with dd at all, and I was out of bed the next day and pretty much back to normal about a week later. I know that there are complicaions, and a c-section is not always the best way, but sometimes it is!

pupuce · 22/11/2002 15:43

Aloha.. While I tend to agree with you about some people's view and arguments on c-sections are to make some women feel guilty I tend to feel that some objective arguments are seen as scare mongering by women who just can't believe these arguments. I have seen this behaviour often !
I haven't read 17th lit. on childbearing so I can't argue that BUT I can also tell you that I don't suppose they did know (and I would even argue that plenty pf people today still do not kow) anything about birth physiology... By the way this isn't about BAD c-setion it's about why vaginal deliveries are so good.
Generally people's understanding of what birth will be like and their expectations make it difficult for women to have good births... and you can have good births even when you are like me having the labour from hell (trust me it was...) When I have been told to describe my labour... people are always AMAZED at how I managed to do all without any pain relief (no gas and air either) and how they can't believe I am so positive... it has a lot to do with how I see childbirth and how empowered I feel about giving birth (even though it wasn't at all how I planned it)... and how I view health !
There are (many) things which are done to women during their labour which does NOT and insist NOT help them have an easy labour... yet MW and all do them with the best of intentions.... the best way to birth is in a very quiet (and darkened) room with no conversation, feeling warm and left labouring (NOT interrupted). Leaving the woman in a state like sleep... any interruptions will stimulate her neo cortex and stimulate adrenalin production... slowing down labour (adrenalin does not help oxytocin production)... yet MW, Drs walk in rooms, we ask them if they want to pee, walk, drink,... can we take their pulse, their temp, can we monitor, we leave lights on, all these things DO NOT help a mother's body to work efficiently yet I see it very frequently with the women I support (sometime I manage to get that sorted out and I have had 12 births and only 1 ended up with an emergency forceps in theatre) !
And I have seen a woman who had been left alone because the labour ward was too busy.. she was examined, found to be 8 cm..... and she stopped all progress for many hours... we were all (that's 2 MW and me.. yes guilty as charged!) chatting to her (because she was having a fairly easy labour!)... she is the one who ended up in the emergency forceps after 10 hours between 8cm and full dilation!

BTW a women who is looking to get a doula asked me yesterday... what happens if it doesn't go according to plan... I told her it never does !

P.S. I have seen Drs play Elvis music (and talk about his career) during full aneasthetic cesaerian... but when parents are there and awake it's all very polite and nice.

Corbin · 23/11/2002 00:20

Clucks,

I haven't had time to read all the posts, so I'm probably repeating people. I'm in the same situation that you are. I am very lucky that I only had to endure a few hours of labor before an emergency c-section, but I also had such sweet visions of what birth would be like that were dashed completely. I have been told by my doctor that although she would rather do an elective c/s with my next one (whenever that is) she would be very willing to help me with a VBAC. They are very common (gaining so in the US). I don't think there is any reason why you should not be allowed to give labor a try as long as your pregnancy has been uneventful.

As for epidurals...can't they place the epidural catheter but not put in any medication until they know if you need it? They'll do that here, but I don't know about the UK. At least that way you could have the option of a natural birth but still be prepared.

clucks · 23/11/2002 23:37

Dear Corbin

Thanks for the shared experience. I am now less hysterical and will see my consultant in Jan with questions.

The midwife I saw says they would give a spinal instead of epidural for the section (if elective, I think). I think I had both last time, seems like a waste of needles to me..

OP posts:
clucks · 13/01/2003 23:37

Hello friends

Seen my consultant today. He's not too bothered what I do, as long as I accept responsibility. He'll see me again in 10 weeks and then prepare. Basically, he'll have a go at VBAC if I really want to, but no longer than 12 hours proper labouring (not pretend labouring like last time, naughty me).

Had a really nice midwife last week who said I seemed really mellow (hah) and sensible. If I kept an open mind that anything goes with childbirth, she'd recommend VBAC.

Having become an expert at antenatal consultations, I am considering doing a little private survey of the advice I'm getting from them all.

By the way, requested previous notes from Guys, and they sent someone else's (with full name, date of delivery, problem etc. ghastly experience compared to mine, we should count our blessings) so much for confidentiality...

Also, I was very relaxed today, hilarious 3 ft cubicle with ripped curtain and other women discussing intimate pregnancy probs next door. I wondered if I should mention my excessive flatulence and thought better of it.

OP posts:
prufrock · 14/01/2003 08:40

Clucks - you're lucky you have to mention your excessive flatulence - with mine everybody knew about it from the miasma of methane that used to hang about me

mears · 14/01/2003 11:00

Hope all goes well for you and you get advice you are confident in. Hope the wind settles down soon. I have the same problem and I am not even pregnant

pupuce · 14/01/2003 13:18

Hi Clucks,

Good news.... well done for tryin the VBAC - NO two labour is the same... this one might be a really easy one - THINK POSITIVE!

SofiaAmes · 14/01/2003 17:22

clucks, where are you booked? I had a disastrous first birth at St.Mary's: 40 hours (30 of which were "fake" labor followed by a c-section. The 2nd one was on the Natural Birth floor at Queen Charlotte's: 5 1/2 hours of real labor followed by a VBAC. I would be happy to give you more details if you would like. There are bits and pieces on various threads including this one(search under my name) or get my email address from tech and I'll email you the full details and what to ask for.

jasper · 14/01/2003 21:49

mears it's the weightwatchers zero point soup

mears · 14/01/2003 22:04

Thanks Jasper

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