I'M SORRY

[xkatyx]

this thread has proberly been done to death, i really do appologise.

I'm freaking out about the flu/swine flu jab.

I know it is only my choice but i feel alone with it and would like to just talk to anyone who is struggeling with the same choice.

loudlass did you have confirmed swine flu? If you did then why did you get the vaccine? You are already immune to it because you had it naturally. The vaccine is trying to mimic that natural response.

Has anyone else noticed that if you get the vaccine but still get flu then
a) you must have a different strain

b) you have it 'milder' - how would anyone know whether they wouldn't have had it mildly anyway - or completely asymptomatically as something like 1/3 of people were shown to have last year.

It's just win win for the vaccine manufacturers really. No way of knowing what strain they had unless you get swabbed and wait two weeks and no way of knowing if the vaccine made a difference at all if you do have the flu.

For all of those who said they are 'fine' - the first time this vaccine was trialled on pregnant women was last year. You may not have had an immediate reaction but you don't know what the long term effects may be - no one does. Sorry if that scares you but this has not been tested long term and you have no way of knowing how 'safe' it is. I think it is unfair for people to use this as convincing reason to get the vaccine - how many times do people on mumsnet warn about 'anecdotal evidence'. That is all that is. Yes, you MAY be at more risk IF you catch swine flu but that risk is still very small. Yes, it looks scary when the media are reporting every single case and hospitalisation but if you did that for any disease you would be terrified to walk outside the door!

I had mine yesterday. Didn't even feel it going in, and no sore arm so far either. I'd been putting it off, but the recent news stories scared me enough to get me off my bum and to the surgery!

It's all about balancing the risks/benefits for your own beliefs/family. I respect those with concerns, but for me the small but potentially fatal consequences of swine flu outweigh the unknown but unlikely risk of long term problems. Yes, this is the first year this version has been available, but it's not reinventing the wheel and very similar vaccines have been used for years. The addition of an inactive version of a virus to an already known vaccine doesn't give me enough concern to refuse this. I couldn't bear the thought of losing my baby, or leaving my DD without a mum if the worst did happen when I could potentially have prevented it.

Tangle - so very sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Nutcracker - I was doing some reading on the mercury (thimerosal) issue. I think the vaccine produced by GSK (Pandemrix) contains thimerosal. Thimerosal not been used in baby vaccines for many years as it is thought to be neurotoxic (research not conclusive). Also, it crosses the placenta.

As for the medic with a PhD - quite surprised that you didn't provide a more balanced argument for having/not having it. The fact is that it has not been tested on pregnant women (as with many medicines) and so the long term effects are not known.

"the small but potentially fatal consequences of swine flu outweigh the unknown but unlikely risk of long term problems."

biting, unfortunately there's no way of knowing how unlikely or even what the risks are yet of this vaccine. I sincerely hope that we don't find out years down the line that it has had some horrible side effects but it is not possible to weigh up risks and benefits when you're comparing something to the unknown. Do we even know how effective this vaccine (the trivalent one) is yet? As I said, if people who have had the vaccine get the flu anyway then the vaccine has failed to protect them but instead it's either that they must have caught a different strain or they would have had it worse. If the vaccine doesn't work for you then you are still at risk of flu and you have added an unknown risk of side effects into the equation - every vaccine carries a risk and we don't know how risky this one is yet.

Tangle - I remember your story and again can't even begin to express how sorry I was to hear about your loss.

I'm not pregnant but any time I see someone asking whether they should have the jab or not I remember your story and hopefully having read it someone will make the decision to have the jab so thank you for sharing your story.

A lot of people with NO pre-existing medical conditions who aren't pregant have ended up seriously ill from SF and even died so it's a no brainer in my mind.

We also don't know the long term effects of using some gadgets or cosmetics but we still do it...

AuntieMaggie, hundreds of thousands more have had swine flu with no complications, including pregnant women. It really is a very small risk - a risk all the same but I do think there is a bit too much fear - not helped by the media! If they reported all the flu cases or and hospitalisations from that every year we would probably be afraid too. I think any vaccination or drug when pregnant is a big decision and I don't think all the scaremongering is helping to make that decision any easier.

Had mine today (12 weeks pregnant). The benefits (in my mind) far outweigh any risks - which are all just speculation at the moment. There is no evidence the jab will harm your unborn baby, but plenty of evidence suggesting how harmful the flu (swine or otherwise) is to you and your unborn child.

As Auntie Maggie said, there are so many things we use in our everyday life that have the potential to impact us later on. I'm sure most people are using their mobile phones while pregnant but there has never been any conclusive studies done that show we are not harming our unborn babies.

Each to their own, and healthy pregnancies to all, whatever you decide. x

Bubble I agree. It would be a no brainer with more complete knowledge, which we don't have. I have decided against it and am taking as many precautions as possible to limit exposure.

Lulu - the risks are just speculation at the minute because there are no safety studies to confirm or deny them! I don't know how anyone is expected to make a decision without that information and how anyone can be confident in their decision without it to be honest.

I had the vaccine. I was, and still am, confident in my decision.

There is far too much scaremongering coming from uneducated people and it is putting pregnant women who listen to it and don't do their own research, at risk.

I had it too last year when pregnant (can't remember how many weeks). No side effects for either of us.

Research into what jeely? Can you point these pregnant women in the direction of those safety studies that show that this vaccine is safe for pregnant women and will have no longterm effects on them or their baby? That's the type of information they need and it's just not there. Be happy with your decision by all means but how can you do research when the information isn't available?

I've just had it. Dr said he thought it was the best thing, that they were treating swine flu in the area and he had had one pregnant lady get it.

I will probably worry the other way now. It's very difficult. The media do a good job of scaring you.

There is no guarantee about anything in life is there! However we do know that the risk of flu to pregnant women is real and there is no evidence of a risk from the vaccine. Why elevate a risk that in all likelihood doesn't exist over one that definitely does?

We all know that no drugs are specifically tested on pregnant women. But thousands of them have received a flu vaccine and there is still nothing to point to a risk from getting it. There are stats available on the internet for the number of people in general and pg women who have died from flu though. I cannot be arsed looking for them yet again but they were not hard to find. The links are on this thread.

It's worth remembering that this years vaccine is totally different to last years as it's in the seasonal flu vaccine so it's cervepan or pandermix. Though there were tragic stories from last year, their was no proven link between vaccine and miscarriage. Though that is a different issue this year anyway as the seasonal flu vaccine has been safely given to pregnant women for years. No, it's not licensed for pregnant women- but NOTHING is, not even paracetamol!

As for the thimerosal/ mercury issue, the vaccine contains 25mg of thimerosal but there is 28mg in a tune sandwich! Pregnant women should limit their weekly tuna intake so just reduce the amount of tuna you eat on vaccine week and that isn't a risk!

I've read lots of different things and found this notice from the Department of Health the most helpful:
www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/Final%20171210%20Advice%20on%20influenza%20A%20for%20maternity%20services.pdf

The benefits of the vaccine are proven but the disadvantages are heavily debated and not evidence based. Given the fact that pregnant women are currently gravely ill with H1N1 flu my decision is easy peasy- protect me and baby

ps. sh77, I think that shergar, the medic with a PhD, did give a very balanced and fair comment as really there is no logical, medical reason for women not to have the vaccine so his argument need not contain an opposing side.

Hi ladies, ive been reading the last few pages and ive just got a quick question...i had the swine flu jab and the seasonal flu jab last year whilst not pregnant (one in each arm, ouch!) so do i need to have it again this year because im preggers??? I havent been 'invited' by the GP but i can get an appointment for next week.
Thanks

If you've had the H1N1 vaccine and have no chronic conditions that mean that you should have the seasonal flu vaccine each year (as they change the strains within it) then you should be covered. The flow chart on the final page of the Department of Health document is very helpful for seeing if you need the vaccine or not:
www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/Final%20171 210%20Advice%20on%20influenza%20A%20for%20maternit y%20services.pdf

Thanks cala i will have a look and decide x

cala - how can comment be balanced without containing an "opposing side"? It is illogical to say there is no logical or medical reason not to have it when the long term effects are not known. Indeed, the RCOG openly says it does not know the effects.

But if there is no logical opposing side then that information need not be presented. It is illogical to say that someone must present illogical information just because others have been illogical and created another side There may be risks but none are known. The seaosnal flu vaccine has been given for years!

the only logical thing, in this case, is to agree to disagree

Had it last year at about 9 weeks. No reaction. IMO you should have it. Unwell mother is not good for baby.

Of course there are no long term studies for this years trivalent vaccine - how can there be? If we waited for 20 years for the results of studies we'd be 20 years behind and the vaccine changes yearly! Not sure I understand the logic of that! However, like I said, this years vaccine is not reinventing the wheel. The basic vaccine (carrier etc) is the same as it has been for years, the thing that changes year to year is the inactive virus protein which is added. Obviously the World Health Organisation cannot predict 100% what the main strains are, but they can make an educated guess from their vast experience and those strains go into the vaccine to protect the biggest number of people. The vaccine is not unique to the UK - I think it's the Northern Hemisphere, but you can check on their website if you want, so there are enormous numbers of people immunised, pregnant or otherwise. Of course they can't cover every simgle variant of flu in a single vaccine, so people will still get flu even when immunised. (Not sure why anyone would need a sceptical face here) And of course not everyone will mount a complete immune response. The vaccine is NOT about guaranteeing you will not get flu - it's about reducing the number of people in the population who will get the most common or serious strains.

I am completely comfortable with my decision and would do the same again. It's surely about balancing risk/benefit in your OWN situation, and there will always be people sceptical about vaccines or reluctant to take any medications at all in pregnancy. Each to their own, (unfortunatley due to severe HG I haven't had this luxury either)and I am happy to respect their different opinions.