Almost 5. At least 4 accidents today. End of my rope.

[bunique]

Almost 5 year old DD. Has never been reliably dry in the day since she came out of nappies at 2 but is showing absolutely no signs of improvement. No UTI. GP clueless (told me to see HV). HV recommended drinking more but it is impossible to force her to drink more in the day, I'm constantly reminding her to drink and we take water everywhere with us. Missed a day out today because I had to clean up an accident which would have made us late for what we had planned. Had to leave a play date early last week because she had wet through all the changes of clothes I'd brought out with us. I don't want to take her out anywhere anymore. Doesn't care about sitting in wet clothes. Will get herself changed and will clean up floor when told to. School next week and I'm sat here in tears yet again feeling I have completely failed at this. No one I know seems to be having this problem and I can't see any end in sight. Has anyone got any words of wisdom? I don't know what to say to any HCP that will get them to take this seriously and even if they did I don't know what else to do

[AnnaD2]

Bunique - really glad to hear that you are having some success at school. I hope it will continue! Unfortunately we are having the opposite with lots of wee and poo accidents at home and at school. It is so disheartening because it is such a regression. 3 months ago we saw a few weeks of marked improvement and now (for whatever reason) we appear back at square one. I re-read the OP and was reminded of your frustration and sadness. I am feeling so down about this right now. I feel like my whole life is revolving around this and all the reminding/pants washing/trying to research and figure out a solution is exhausting me and getting me down. Other people just don't get it and tbh I feel ashamed that he's so old and still struggling so much. If I had a pound for everyone who has suggested a reward chart/gentle approach/tough love/waiting....! Has anyone got any suggestions for coping and dealing with these feelings? It is much worse now he is at school as I have less control on helping him and it feels more shameful I am due a new baby in a month and need to potty train my 2.5 DD as she is keen and seems ready but it is all white overwhelming....

[AnnaD2]

*quite not white!

[MajesticWhine]

DD has had a bad week. She has been holding on all day at school and then having an accident on the way home . She is begging me not to speak to the teachers, but obviously I will have to. Incentives do work with her, but I can't know what goes on at school, so I need the teachers to reward / remind her as well.
Anna - I don't know what to suggest about how you are feeling. It does sound familiar though. It is so very wearing and frustrating. But of course you have nothing to be ashamed of, none of us do. Maybe try and have a day off. No googling, no reminding him, just let things take their course. Let him put his own pants in the washing machine and fetch some dry ones. I sometimes do this in the vague hope that DD will take responsibility if I step back. It might not help but it will give you well deserved break

[bunique]

AnnaD, I'm so sorry, I know exactly how you are feeling, and I don't really have any suggestions at all. Maybe a call to ERIC would help? A sympathetic ear with some more practical suggestions? Have you asked to see the school nurse? Not confident of how helpful they will be but at least might help you feel like you're being proactive.

[bunique]

The other thing is poo accidents should hopefully prompt a proactive GP to refer for further investigation, more than wee accidents. I know Steve Hodges ("It's No Accident") says that by far the most common cause of both poo and wee accidents is an impacted stool and the only way to diagnose it is an xray. But honest to god the GPs seem to reluctant to consider a medical cause. Will dig out the NICE guidance for you to go armed if you decide to approach them

[bunique]

NICE says: "
Consider further assessment and investigation to exclude a specific medical problem for children over 2 years who, despite awareness of toileting needs and showing appropriate toileting behaviour, are struggling not to wet themselves during the day as well as the night."

[RandomMess]

I really feel for all of you struggling with this, I've no personal experience but one of he classmates had this very similar of issue of now urge and it is a medical one, I can't believe how disinterested the GP has been

Please push for a referral - you can always cancel if the issue suddenly resolves itself.

[AnnaD2]

Thanks for your comments - it is good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this! DS' teacher started with a new reward chart today and he managed to be totally dry and clean (with lots of promoting). A step in the right direction! I saw the GP again yesterday and she agreed to a Paediatrician referral to check for medicl causes altho obviously there will be a wait for this. So good progress, I guess but frustrating as I first sought help a long time ago. Not under the school nurse yet, but will pursue that if things don't improve.
Majestic - I think a day to switch off is a good idea. I too have done this in the past in hope that something might click in him taking responsibility. Even if that doesn't happen, some time out for me if probably a good idea

[AnnaD2]

Majestic - meant to say I'm sorry to hear things have been tough there too Do speak to the teacher as hopefully they can help with prompting/rewards etc. Hope you have a better weekend!

[pilsbury1]

thanks so much for starting this thread, is is heartening to know there are others going through the same thing... much like OP DD1 has been officially trained since she was almost 2, but actually seems worse now than ever, having 1 or 2 accidents most days. she started school two weeks ago and i think she's just been holding it in as when she does have an accident its massive! and with us, its not just wees but also poos :(
i am also at end of my tether with this - whenever me and OH have a date night we always end up on the fricking subject of how to solve this problem! it also has a knock-on effect on her mood (as well as ours) as she can be quite naughty after an accident.
we've been referred to paediatric specialist but he said there was nothing physically wrong with her. I think she's either doing it have control over us or she might simply be being lazy.
much as others have said, i ask her a million times per day if she needs to go, but even if she is literally jigging on the spot, unable to keep still, she still says no (if i force her to go, then of course, she wees/poos). interestingly if my OH asks her then she goes (but they're always better behaved with the dads aren't they!)
i have just mentioned it to school yesterday as being something i need their help with. they too are going to ask her to go at every transition stage. and i'm also back on the millionth star/bribery/reward chart - we've also tried the mean/taking toys away side, but that didn't seem to work either :(
banging my head against a wall.
is there anything else we haven't thought of? does anyone else have this issue with both poos and wees?
sorry for long rant!

[RandomMess]

I only had any difficulties with one of mine and it was minor compared with these. However I didn't ask her if she wanted the loo when it was obvious that she needed etc. I just told her to go (sternly if necessary)

The only other tactic would be to completely and utterly ignore it and literally you can do x once you've cleared up your wee/poo and got changed.

You have probably tried these suggestions though but I just wonder if you need to completely shift the battle that has been going on. Of course the Dr could be wrong!

[Giddyupgumdrop]

Both my boys have had trouble with soiling/wetting. My eldest was constipated and the youngest just didn't know when he needed a wee. I had a lot of support from a fab hv with ds1 but he just got there himself in the end. With ds2 I saw the gp who referred us to the hospital. They kept saying he was constipated and I knew there was more to it. After a couple of years of not being listened to a lovely school nurse finally heard what I was saying and referred us to the eurenisis clinic (sp?). The nurse made us measure his output and believes that he has a small capacity bladder. He is 6 and now on medication. Things are not perfect (he is also a little reluctant to miss out at school) but he was even becoming dry at night over the hols.

Sorry to waffle on but it is worth pushing for help from the school nursing team should you need it. The teachers could only do so much for both my boys and the hospital were obsessed with their bowel movements to actually listen to me. The sooner you get a referral for the nursing team the better as there often tends to be a long wait list.

Good luck. I know how hard it has been for us and how it effected our relationship/bond for a long time. Ds2 is now a much happier boy.

[bunique]

Pilsbury - did they X-Ray your daughter to rule out constipation or just feel her tummy/ask about bowel movements?

[bunique]

Also agree with the above about telling her to go - I told my DD I was setting a timer (and actually did for the first few days - now I just keep half an eye on the clock) and just said "time for a wee" and she'd take herself off. Starting to extend the time a bit now to just transitions (when we get in from school, just before dinner and bedtime).

One accident yesterday but dry again today. Even had a dry night the other night (which was lucky as she hopped on bed with my mum )

[bunique]

Saw school nurse who has recommended pretty much what we were doing - regular toilet trips prompted by teacher/us, gradually extending the time between them. Also asked us to get her to piddle in a jug to check bladder capacity, which she will love She did take me seriously but mostly said we were doing what they would suggest anyway - nice to get the confirmation I suppose. Reconvene in 4 weeks and she said they will refer to paediatrician if no improvements

[AnnaD2]

Hi, sorry I've been absent for a few days! I'm glad you got to see the school nurse, bunique. I have asked but it hasn't happened yet. School don't seem too concerned as a lot of DS's accidents are small so he doesn't tell them . Or he will come out bursting and then wet himself on the way home. Still lots of accidents at home too. Can I ask what kind of timer you have your DD - was it a watch? Do you have a link? The reward charts don't seem to be motivating my DS anymore.

On a side note, we potty trained my 2.5 DD last week (she was keen!) and after a few hours she was asking to do wees and poos on the toilet! Such a different experience as she is so motivated and has even been dry at night a few times. So I have a bit more confidence that my son's issues aren't all 'my fault'! Although am tearing my hair out as new baby is due soon....

[tldr]

We saw a marked improvement with DD (5.6) after we toilet trained DS, which showed that in her case it was at least in part a motivation issue. She genuinely didn't care (and wouldn't give a hoot about sitting in wet clothes), now she does.

She still has a tendency towards extreme urgency though.

And nighttime dryness seems a million miles away.

[bunique]

Anna - the watch order got cancelled as it would have been delayed until after Christmas, and the SN agreed that as she's doing okay for now we'll leave her to it and revisit that in future if needed. I ordered from a company called Connevans I think? They do lots of assisted living equipment. I started out using a timer on my phone but now I just tend to keep an eye on the clock and tell her it's time to go, and she generally complies (not when her dad asks her though!)

[homeaway]

I have not read the whole thread but I thought I would add my experience , which might be of use to you . I found that any type of drink other than water had a diuretic effect on my dc. It was really marked in that as soon as anything other than water was consumed a loo would have to be found in a nano second. I think that some children are more sensitive to the additives than others. Can you just offer water and nothing else and see if that makes a difference, it might not help but it could be worth a try.

[AnnaD2]

Hi, thanks for your comments.
Tldr - I'm hoping we have a similar experience to you now that DD is dry. Altho I don't want it to get competitive in an unhelpful way.

Bunique - thanks for the info about the timer. I will do some googling

Home away - that's interesting that you found that. We only have water or milk anyway. I do think squash affects DS' bowels so we avoid that. He also would drink twice as much as he likes taste, so I guess that makes him go more often. Interestingly, a friend who used to have a similar child was encouraged to drink more by the continence team (including juice/squash if necessary) as they thought dehydration/constipation was contributing to the issues. The advice is all a bit overwhelming....

[bunique]

Measuring bladder capacity has been insightful! It's only 1/3 to 1/2 what it should be for her age

[AnnaD2]

Wow Bunique - that must make it difficult for her! How good to find a reason - is there anything that can be done about it?

[bunique]

I'm not even sure it is the reason but it must be a contributing factor! Not sure what can be done about it but am meeting school nurse again in a couple of weeks and will ask her.

[MajesticWhine]

We are back to the GP today to see what we do next. DD had the all clear from ultrasound - nothing wrong there. But she is still having a few problems both at school and at home and not really getting any better.
That is interesting about bladder capacity. I wonder if we should try measuring that. You can certainly train your bladder to hold more as an adult. I remember doing it once when I was having a few problems with urgency, post childbirth.

[bunique]

The school nurse said it's agex30 plus 30 so should be around 150ml but the two measurements over the weekend were 50-75ml.

Do you recall how you trained your bladder Majestic? I think I've seen that when you get the urge to go you try and hold on for a short time before going to the loo, but as my DD has no urge I worry that she wouldn't be able to do that. Sorry to hear you're having problems still - hope GP takes you seriously