Almost 5. At least 4 accidents today. End of my rope.

[bunique]

Almost 5 year old DD. Has never been reliably dry in the day since she came out of nappies at 2 but is showing absolutely no signs of improvement. No UTI. GP clueless (told me to see HV). HV recommended drinking more but it is impossible to force her to drink more in the day, I'm constantly reminding her to drink and we take water everywhere with us. Missed a day out today because I had to clean up an accident which would have made us late for what we had planned. Had to leave a play date early last week because she had wet through all the changes of clothes I'd brought out with us. I don't want to take her out anywhere anymore. Doesn't care about sitting in wet clothes. Will get herself changed and will clean up floor when told to. School next week and I'm sat here in tears yet again feeling I have completely failed at this. No one I know seems to be having this problem and I can't see any end in sight. Has anyone got any words of wisdom? I don't know what to say to any HCP that will get them to take this seriously and even if they did I don't know what else to do

[pilsbury1]

A very quick update from me - we were on holiday for 2.5 weeks over Easter in Vietnam (amazing place, a big adventure holiday for us all!) & on about day 2 DD had a big wee accident and we had words with her and explained (again!) about how important it was not have accidents while we were away as only had limited clothes etc... Not sure if that was it, but basically the entire trip totally matured her! We did a lot of travelling around, staying in different places, eating different foods etc and the accidents just seemed to stop on their own and she has come back a very different person... I think having to take on extra responsibility while we were away was the thing that did it for her... We've been back two months now and I think she's had literally only had about 3 or 4 accidents since then, including 3 days last week at half term club (in a new place with new people and lots of exciting things going on - i.e. the kinda thing that normally meant accidents all over the place) when she had no accidents at all! I am so very very proud of her and keep telling her all the time. So the moral of our story is... well... I wish I knew! Every child is different, but i think, as everyne says, they are the ones in control and only they will work out when they need to put a stop to it (assuming there's no medical conditions that is!)...

AnnaD2 I really hope that you too are starting to see light at the end of the tunnel! I wish you all the very best xx

[AnnaD2]

Thanks Pilsbury - I hope you enjoy your holiday and the changw of scene takes the focus away from the toileting troubles for a while. I know what you mean about wanting to not think about my DS's difficulties for a while - it is mentally and emotionally exhausting.
We've had a little more success recently. We have been making DS do a poo every day after breakfast - we read a chapter of a book while he goes. That has led to 2 weeks of no poo accidents . Wee acidents are still happening but we've had 4 completely dry days. Maybe his success with poos has increased his motivation. Who knows. We had a home visit from the school nurse, who was very kind but tbh didn't suggest anything we hadn't already tried. She maintained that wetting is very common at 5 and we shouldn't worry yet...hmmm..

Elvish - thank you for your encouragement. Very interesting about your DD. It is strange how the response of GPs varies so much. We were referred to a paediatrician but she didn't investigate the wee issues really. My DS definitely doesn't seem to have much warning when he needs a wee. Good luck with the potty training!

[Elvish]

Hi everyone. I came to this section of talk looking for some advice for potty training DS (3) but reading this thread I wanted to tell you about DD.

We had problems from potty training, loads of accidents, nightmare for school, really stressful for her and everyone else. We rewarded, we punished we tried everything.

Finally I got the GP to refer us to the specialist pediatric urology department at the hospital. They gave us a list of things to avoid (orange juice, blackcurrant, caffeine etc) they measured the flow of her wee and the volume. We had to do a week long study measuring how much she drank and when she had a wee, whether she made it to the loo or was very / little bit wet.

DD is now on medication (oxybutynin) and it's like magic. She now knows when she needs to go and has enough notice to get there.

It really helped me to speak to the specialist nurse. She explained that DD doesn't always know that she's had a wee, she's not lieing to me, she's not being naughty. A hyperactive bladder is a condition she can't do anything about.

Realising this has made such a huge difference to our relationship. I'm no longer angry when she has an accident, all the tension is gone.

I know how hard it is and how much you worry that it's your fault or it's behavioral. I'm sorry I took so long to get a referral and that I spent so much time being angry with DD.

Anyway, sorry for the essay but please don't be fobbed off by your GPs. I can't really explain how much different our life is now we're not constantly thinking about toilets and accidents. for all of you.

[pilsbury1]

Ah bless you, you do have your hands full, hadn't realised you have 3! As my best friend told me remember it's all a stage and like you say, it will all pass! And things always feel a billion times worse when you're not getting enough sleep!

Right not we are also having poo accidents almost as much as wee ones. Which is why I think it is a behavioural/psychological thing rather than a physical issue.

We are off on hols for two weeks over Easter so I'm going to wait and see how we get on while we are away then re-address the whole thing when we are back - if there are still problems, then I'll talk to the school nurse and see if s/he recommends the watch thing (but I have my doubts myself).

Other than that, I am still in status quo - like you! I would just love to spend one day not worrying about toileting and/or spend one evening in conversation with my OH not talking about it. I have thought about contacting ERIC but really this is more for my benefit than my daughters, just feel like I need someone "independent" to talk to about it at times... I did find this www.eric.org.uk/assets/Causes%20of%20daytime%20wetting.pdf on there which made interesting reading & also keep meaning to print off this www.eric.org.uk/assets/downloads/149/ERICs%20Guide%20to%20Childhood%20Daytime%20Wetting%20%20web%20version.pdf as I think it might be good to read with her..

xxx

[AnnaD2]

Hi pilsbury, sorry for the slow reply, and to hear that you're having similar issues I reckon you're right in stopping the taking away tv/play dates thing. IME punishments don't seem to work and just cause DS to get angry. But i do feel your pain and often want to punish just to get DS to take some responsibility! And because I'm tearing my hair out in frustration!

We haven't got around to trying a watch - they seemed quite expensive online. Have you tried that yet??

Glad to hear that your other DS has potty trained. such a relief, hey? Restores your faith in your own parenting!!

We are continuing to have accidents most days. As DS has soiling issues too we are trying to make him sit on the toilet after breakfast every day. We read a chapter of a book while he tries a poo. That has worked the past few days. Still lots of wee accidents at school. The school nurse said that wetting is normal at this age and they won't see him til he's 7! He had just turned 5 and is bright with a good memory. I can't understand why this is so hard for him. Anyway I think the sn felt sorry for me, so is doing a home visit this week

I am finding it all a bit much. DD1 has started the threenager stage and DD2 is a poor sleeper. This too will pass!

[pilsbury1]

Hello, nice to hear the updates! We are also getting nowhere fast really! We had a great period over Xmas with no accidents for about 3 weeks, but then everything has slipped again now we are back at school.

We've been promising treats for good weeks, but also, conversely we have been banning TV on accident days and also stopping playdates - this doesn't seem to have worked though and last night after my OH told my LO how disappointed he was that she'd had an accident last night, she said "but do you still love me daddy?" and that obviously completely broke our hearts :(

Interestingly, my littlest one who is 2.5, has all of sudden wanted to do potty training and totally nailed it within a week! so there's hope for all of you out there with 2 or more kids! We are trying not to make them competitive but still gently saying to our oldest one that she needs to set an example for little brother.

after a big chat last night with OH, we have decided to drop the no TV/no playdates thing as it's not working, is too harsh and also unfair on littlest one too. we are also going to stop forcing her to go to the toilet (unless we are about to leave house on a car journey).

I still have no idea why she is having accidents though. it is wees most of the time, but sometimes the odd poo, and it doesn't seem to bother her walking around in wet knickers. she leaves it to the last minute every single time. AnnaD2, she is also starting lying about accidents and i can imagine her starting hiding pants in the not-too-distant future too :(

i was contemplating buying one of those vibrating watches from the ERIC website that vibrates every hour to help remind her at school - i think the novelty factor would work with her, but wondering if it really makes an impact long-term (as obvs they need to want to sort the problem out themselves, not just be reminded!) - any thoughts?

[AnnaD2]

We're back. Sorry for going AWOL for 3 months! I had a baby at half term and life got a bit crazy. Bizarrely, DS improved massively once DD2 was born. We concluded that there was a big emotional element to his difficulties and enjoyed a dry and clean few weeks. Just before Xmas it all went downhill and now is as bad as ever The paediatrician felt DS problems may have been linked to constipation in the past but now are largely behavioural. This week I have asked again at school for a referral to the school nurse as we still haven't seen her. It's so frustrating to have another regression. DS has also started lying about going to the toilet and has been hiding wet/dirty pants from us. Anyone have any suggestions?! I don't know how to motivate him to go more often and stop him hiding it....

[Octonautstotherescue]

Have you read "it's no accident" by Steven j hodges - about severe constipation being a cause of many accidents. Our DD got much better after a course of laxatives from the doctors and we now make sure she has plenty of fibre in her diet.

[skyfullofstars010708]

I'm so glad I found this thread although i see its been a while since the last post.
While I wouldn't wish these issues on anyone, it's reassuring to not feel so alone in it, as no one else I know in RL is experiencing this.
My 4.5 yo son is having constant accidents and has never been dry, having tried everything. I too have found it so much more difficult to cope with since he's started school and it's such a visible issue, I worry about him being bullied and the GP has been hopeless. I've been battling and battling for a referral to a paediatrician as I'm convinced he has a physicial issue/ abnormality causing this as he literally wees 15+ times a day. We finally were referred and given an appointment (in April! ) and I've now recieved a letter saying given DS age the consultant has cancelled our app and referred back to the GP! Who hasn't a clue! It's a nightmare

[tiggerbounce77]

I am glad I have stumbled across this thread, my daughter is 5, in year 1 at school, she is coming home every day having a minimum of 1 accident, sometimes 2, we have been advised to keep a toileting chart which has shown that she wees a lot in the afternoon, she will go to the toilet between 7 and 9 times through the day. We have stopped everything apart from milk and water, I just don't seems to be seeing any improvement :( we are back to the doctors next week. I have tried reward charts, telling her off, talking to her about why she keeps doing it and also not telling anyone she is wet, I just don't know what else to do

[WSM123]

From my very limited experience, try to track or take note of the time between accidents (1hour 2hours etc) and then ask her every hour/2hours what ever it is. If she says no ask again every half hour until she says she needs to go.
If she has an accident or goes in the toilet leave her for the specified length of time again etc

[MajesticWhine]

We are still in about the same situation. DD is still having occasional accidents at school and home, but also a bit of unnoticed leakage every day. She is increasingly fed up with anyone telling her to go to the toilet. We have been referred to a community paediatric team but have not heard from them yet.

[bunique]

End of first half term here - how's everyone doing?

[AnnaD2]

Another accident at school today here. DSL Seemed to enjoy wearing different trousers that school gave him!

Interesting about bladder capacity. I think my DS's is quite good as he can hold it in for quite a while; he just doesn't seem to have an urge/resists the urge. Hard to know how much is behavioural/other reasons. 5 weeks to wait for Paedn appt. Meeting with the parent support advisor at school next week to see if she has any suggestions. Still waiting to hear back about the school nurse. I feel like all the prompting and rewarding is causing DS to become more lazy - he will
Sometimes comment that he didn't go to the toilet because no one asked him to! Even though I expect he had some urge. Can't decide whether to try the timer idea or whether that will just 'train' to be totally reliant on a timer....

[Floppy5885]

Mine did this. She wasn't bothered by it at all. Stopped naturally without nagging aged 7

[bunique]

Thanks Squashybanana will keep those to hand if she gets resistant!

Glad you've got a referral Majestic! And thanks for that info - sounds like we're kind of on the right track!

[MajesticWhine]

GP was a sweetie. She has referred us to the community paediatric team.

The bladder training - well I can't remember the details, but yes, I think there are two things. To manage urgency problems, when you get an urge you try to put off going to the toilet, so you don't give in straight away. So yeah, obviously not relevant if no urge is being felt. I was having problems when I opened the front door!
In order to increase capacity, I think you go to the toilet on a schedule (e.g. every 2 hours) and then when you can manage that without a problem, you then increase the time interval a bit. etc.

[Squashybanana]

The thing that turned it around for my DD was an app where you could record a message that would play at intervals you could set. I recorded '(name,) it's potty time' and set it for 2 hour intervals. She never had another accident! It was about 80,p and we used it for about 2 weeks. It was brilliant because it took the battle of wills out of it completely. Might be worth a try for some. We also downloaded an autism app called 'see me go potty' which was a bit more money but really good at just making expectations really clear and taking some of the scariness away.

[bunique]

The school nurse said it's agex30 plus 30 so should be around 150ml but the two measurements over the weekend were 50-75ml.

Do you recall how you trained your bladder Majestic? I think I've seen that when you get the urge to go you try and hold on for a short time before going to the loo, but as my DD has no urge I worry that she wouldn't be able to do that. Sorry to hear you're having problems still - hope GP takes you seriously

[MajesticWhine]

We are back to the GP today to see what we do next. DD had the all clear from ultrasound - nothing wrong there. But she is still having a few problems both at school and at home and not really getting any better.
That is interesting about bladder capacity. I wonder if we should try measuring that. You can certainly train your bladder to hold more as an adult. I remember doing it once when I was having a few problems with urgency, post childbirth.

[bunique]

I'm not even sure it is the reason but it must be a contributing factor! Not sure what can be done about it but am meeting school nurse again in a couple of weeks and will ask her.

[AnnaD2]

Wow Bunique - that must make it difficult for her! How good to find a reason - is there anything that can be done about it?

[bunique]

Measuring bladder capacity has been insightful! It's only 1/3 to 1/2 what it should be for her age

[AnnaD2]

Hi, thanks for your comments.
Tldr - I'm hoping we have a similar experience to you now that DD is dry. Altho I don't want it to get competitive in an unhelpful way.

Bunique - thanks for the info about the timer. I will do some googling

Home away - that's interesting that you found that. We only have water or milk anyway. I do think squash affects DS' bowels so we avoid that. He also would drink twice as much as he likes taste, so I guess that makes him go more often. Interestingly, a friend who used to have a similar child was encouraged to drink more by the continence team (including juice/squash if necessary) as they thought dehydration/constipation was contributing to the issues. The advice is all a bit overwhelming....

[homeaway]

I have not read the whole thread but I thought I would add my experience , which might be of use to you . I found that any type of drink other than water had a diuretic effect on my dc. It was really marked in that as soon as anything other than water was consumed a loo would have to be found in a nano second. I think that some children are more sensitive to the additives than others. Can you just offer water and nothing else and see if that makes a difference, it might not help but it could be worth a try.