failing my boy with this potty training - 18 months in!!!!!!!

[Curlysoo]

So yeah, we're 18 months in and still no joy. My beautiful, beautiful little boy is 4 years 3 months now with a will of wrought iron and with each passing day I feel more of a failure and I know that I am letting him down massively. He will be going to school in September and I fear that we will still be having these issues, he will be bullied and I will be sent to prison for a very long time when it is discovered that I have dismembered whichever one of his peers was stupid enough to laugh at him.

If Jesus were to appear in front of me now I could honestly say without fear of holy retribution that I have tried everything under the sun to make this boy go to the toilet. We were both crying today when I snapped and shouted that I would be putting him back into nappies tomorrow because that's what we do with babies. I know I am disgusting but I am typing this as something of a beaten woman. I was previously an articulate and non-ridiculous (except for that one strange week in the month) person before this chapter in our lives.

Many people have told me that he will "just get it" one day and I have had to bite down on my tongue so hard I thought that I may have bitten through it on more than one occasion. I am a stay at home mum by choice and it has to be said that most of the folks that enjoy imparting their nuggets of wisdom upon me are those that have gone back to work after maternity leave. More power to them I say but what I would also say is that this means the tricky potty training has been dealt with by a child minder, nursery nurse or family member etc when the time came... basically they haven't had to fucking do it themselves but feel the need to tell me how easy it was for them!

I cannot believe how mad I get or how stupid it seems at the end of the day but I have no more answers and I don't want to fail him like this. I start each new day afresh but the nasty knot in my stomach is back at the end of the day because I know I am an awful parent and I cannot get this right for him. HELP

Should I try the HV first?

I told him that we would have to put him in pull-ups hoping of course that the threat would convince him to go to the toilet but instead he rolled his eyes and got some pull-ups from the drawer.

That's fine - part of the two-strike rule is giving him a choice every morning. You need to change your thinking - don't see pull-ups as a threat - they are a legitimate choice for him to make or they are a natural consequence of his behaviour (so still a choice in a roundabout way). They are not a punishment.

Put a pile of pull-ups in his drawer with his pants - when you are getting him dressed in the morning, get him to choose. If he chooses pull-ups that's fine.

No matter what he chooses, remind him that we do wee wees and poos on the toilet and then in the normal course of chatting to him while he is getting dressed, ask him it in the form of a question ("where do we do wee wees and poos").

Do some positive re-inforcement "Let's see if we can have no accidents today".

Regularly ask him throughout the day if he wants to go. If he says no, sometimes accept it, sometimes say "well lets try anyway" (although if he kicks up a fuss, don't push it - it's his body).

If he is wearing a pull-up and you have to change it because it is wet, do a little gentle chastisement followed by re-inforcement "You silly banana, you've done a wee wee in your pull-up rather than the toilet". If he's in the pull-up through choice, rather than as a consequence of the two-strike rule, give him the choice between pull-ups and pants again.

Don't ever get cross, but don't ignore it either. DD2 is younger, but when she has an accident I use lots of words like silly banana, daft monkey, pest etc or just "Oh dd2, what are you like", although it is always used very gently rather than a cross way.

If he does go to the toilet either voluntarily, or produces at the times you encourage him to go, obviously re-inforce it with a lot of praise (but not treats) and don't punish accidents by removing something ever.

I suspect that it has been going on for so long that it has become a battle of wills - he probably feels like it is something that is being 'done' to him, especially with the distress of the night-time accidents and the intentional soiling could possibly be his way of exerting control.

By doing it this way, you are putting him back in control - he gets to choose pants or pull-ups, he gets to choose whether he goes to the toilet or not. If you do not show that you are bothered by him wetting himself, he will very quickly realise that the only person who is inconveneinced by it is himself.

It also has the added bonus of removing the stress for you.

Give it 2 months - if he's no better, go to the GP, but I honestly think if you do it this way, you will be surprised by how quickly he gets it.

PS - this is essentially how I trained both of mine - I had the HV telling me I was nuts for using pull-ups and they wouldn't know they were wet, that I should not do drinks before bed time etc etc, but I am essentially incredibly lazy when it comes to potty training, so I took the path of least resistence.

OK, I didn't have DD2 trained in a week like people think you should (it's taken about 2 months, but I don't think she was quite ready when we started), but I also didn't have the stress of cleaning up 10 accidents a day, or having to spend a week at home while she ran around with no pants on.

You're seeing it as a battle. He is only 4. The world looks different to him.

For night times, if he insists on being nappy free then you need to lift him at around your bedtime to minimise accidents. Basically into his room, don't turn the light on, use the hallway light, put potty on the floor and pop him on and tell him to wee. He might be half asleep, doesn't matter he's is more likely to go. We did this for nights with ds until he got old enough and would wake of his own accord.

For days, have no pants when at home. Potties everywhere. Have a chart and some stickers. For every wee he gets a sticker. For every poo he gets a chocolate button. Keep it simple. If he has an accident clear it up with absolutely no fuss at all what so ever. None.

Sorry, just re-read this:

For example, we were just reading a story and I smelled something, asked him if he needed to go to the toilet and he flatly told me that he didn't, he said it must be his brother who has done a poo in his nappy. 2 minutes later when the story is finished, I check the pull-ups and find the tell-tale smear of the beginnings of a poo! Can he understand what a lie is? I am waiting for him to finish now... his brother's nappy is clear!

DD2 did this a few times too (accused DD1 age 6 of trumping). If I checked and could see the smear I'd give her a little tickle and say "Oooh, you little fibber, it's you not DD1", scoop her up and sit her on the toilet. She'd either do it on the toilet or wait till she was off and her pull-up was back on. Either was fine - if she did it on the toilet she got praise, if she did it in her pull-up she got changed without fuss and just a little chastisement.

You need to try and remove any negativity at all and give him total control -sometimes negative attention can be more additive for children than positive attention as they use it as a way of affirming their control.

DS2 had had his entire existence outside the womb blighted by this and I'm emotionally drained but it. I am trying the positive reinforcement thing right now as we start everyday with a discussion about how good it would be to tell Daddy what a big boy he has been when he (Daddy) gets home but I wonder if he can read my mind and is simply playing me.

It takes every last ounce of will power not to snap him in two when I see the wet patches now. I no longer ask him to go, prompt him or suggest that it has been a while, instead I "remind" that he should go to the toilet when he feels the need for wee - for the most part this is met with the big eyes and a promise of "okay mummee, eye wiiiill". I don't know how to argue with that...

hotcrossbunny? we tried the parent bedtime waking thing from the first night he was out of pull-ups for bed but most of the time he had already had the first of his accidents by then, he just hadn't woken up to it yet. I thought it was a brilliant idea when I read about it in her book but it appears that it is just one more thing that 'Super Nanny' lied to me about, hmmmmph!

Aaargh. Just typed a really long message and lost it. But I basically wanted to say that I am with you op - starting afresh this morning and I will be defeated with you this evening. It is truly the most infuriating and depressing situation I've ever found myself in and those people who say there needs to be no reaction or punishment do not know what it is to go through multiple accidents every day for several months (almost two years for us).

You are not a bad parent. A bad parent wouldn't care enough to start afresh each day. Please believe in yourself, sometimes it's all we have on which to keep trying.

Ps I tried the doctor. I was told it's normal and they won't intervene until the age of 6.

Hi kittyburgh (this is the op but by another name as I killed my other profile somehow) and thanks for your post I guess there is SOME solace to be had knowing that perhaps I am not the only one who has been trying for so long.

It has been another 2 weeks and there is absolutely zero change here. I find that I get excited by even 1 accident free toilet visit now until the next pair of wet underpants some 2 hours later... I love him to the very marrow of his bones but I just don't like him right now. How disgusting am I?

Northyorks, I agree with posts from others - it sounds like what's happening is that your ds has figured out that this really pushes your buttons, and gives him a lot of power.

I really think it's ok to give him the choice of pants or pull ups each day, with the simple rule that if there are accidents, then pull ups it is.

We had potties and loo seats around for a year before DD would even deign to sit on them. Last week she just decided to start using them and wearing pants. There is zero chance I could have pushed her into this decision. (We're only a week in, so who knows how it will go). But I have completely been in the same place as you over sleep issues - alternately furious, despairing, isolated and bitterly angry about it. I just had to take all of the emotion out of it and realise that reacting the way I did was just giving her a lot of power and giving her more reason to act up (and wake up).

Huge sympathies. It really does sound like a power play to me, so all you can really do is give him the power you're prepared to hand over and don't give him any cues at all.

Good luck!