5-year-old DS is dirty and smelly all the time (very long, sorry)

[iwouldgoouttonight]

My DS is 5.5, and wets himself daily. He also soils himself regularly. We started potty training when he was about 3 and he has never really been completely dry since then. He is also still wearing nappies at night, and they are full in the mornings, so much so that they often leak.

We initially tried with sticker charts and rewards to encourage him to stay dry during the day - this worked a little bit and he wouldn't do a full wee in his pants, but his pants were still always wet at the end of the day, as though a little bit had dribbled out. We tried to be really positive and praise him if he used the toilet and not make a fuss if he had an accident, but he didn't really seem to mind if the wee was in the toilet or in his trousers. He would sometimes sit with a poo in his pants and not tell us and not be apparently bothered by it.

We also try to get him to go to the toilet regularly and drink plenty of water/juice. If he goes for a poo in the mornings before school he will often get through the day without doing one in his pants, but not always.

We have been to the doctor, who referred us to the hospital. We saw the paediatrician there, who examined DS. He confirmed that he doesn't have a urinary infection, he doesn't have constipation or faecal impaction, and he can't see anything physically wrong with him. He referred us for an ultrasound scan on his bladder and kidneys to check they are functioning correctly and the results came back normal. He also prescribed medication to help with an irritable bladder, in case that is what was causing the incontinence, but after taking the medicine for two months there has been no effect. We have another appointment to see the paediatrian again but not until mid March.

If anything, recently he has got worse. Yesterday he did a full wee while sitting on the sofa. Today he came home from school with soaking wet trousers and a poo in his pants which had clearly been there for a while. We regularly talk to the teachers about it and we ask them to remind him to go to the toilet, and to look out for any accidents. I think they must have not noticed the one today. We have also spoken to the school nurses who have given us leaflets about eating food with fibre in, correct sitting positions to empty bowels, etc but we do all of those things. They said they can't refer him to their incontinence clinic until he is seven.

It affects his behaviour in that when he has wet or soiled himself he doesn't want to talk about it and is very quiet and upset. When I collected him from school today he didn't want to talk to any of his friends and just wanted to get home. When I helped him to get undressed he was upset and said he didn't want to go in the shower. I eventually encouraged him to, and he put clean clothes on and was his happy normal self again.

It is very difficult to pursuade him to go to the toilet if he doesn't want to. We always get him to go before we leave the house and before bed, but sometimes it is a struggle. We really try not to make it into an issue but it is really difficult not to sometimes.

We have tried everything we can think of - we've tried ignoring it and just changing him quickly and quietly. We have tried making a fuss and rewarding him for using the toilet. We have given the responsibilty to him and said we won't nag him to go to the toilet as long as he takes responsibility to go himself, and if he has an accidents he can change himself and put his clothes in the wash. We have tried treating him as though he is being naughty and doing it deliberately. I'm sure he's not because he gets upset by it, but we just don't know what else to try.

We also have a 3-year-old DD who is recently potty trained and she seems fine - she tells us when she needs to go to the toilet and she very rarely has accidents. DS is sometimes quite upset by the fact that she doesn't have accidents and he does, but we don't think his accidents are connected to her potty training because he was the same before she started.

Apart from this he seems happy in himself, he likes school, he has friends, he is getting on well at school, he has good relationships with us and his wider family.

We really are at the end of our tether with it all - DP and I are getting upset about it and starting to take it out on each other. The washing is a nightmare. Our house smells of wee - we can't get the smell out of the sofa. DS is unhappy when he wets or soils himself. He can't go to friends houses or parties on his own because I don't want him to wee on other people's sofas and carpets.

Any advice or just someone to hold my hand would be very much appreciated!

I don't have any real answers, but seeing DS is unhappy about his soiling and wetting makes me wonder whether there is a neurological problem, in that he cannot register the feeling of a full bladder or rectum in order to do something about them, so they just empty almost by reflex as he isn't withholding by choice or deliberately doing it for a reaction from you. You said that the rewards scheme didn't keep him dry even when he made the effort to go to the loo.

Have you asked him whether he knows he needs to wee or poo before it happens, and if he does, why he won't do it in the right place? Have you told him that the more he keeps doing this the less he will be invited to friends houses, because thir parents don't want to clean up his mess? That the older he gets the more his friends will tease him about being dirty and smelly? That you spend ages cleaning up his mess and the house when you could be doing something or going somewhere fun instead? Occasionally parents have dispensed with the softly softly approach and really told off their child, where it seemed that the child just carried on soiling because someone would always clean up and wasn't cross therefore it didn't matter. It was brought home very firmly that they were no longer a baby and it did matter, and various sanctions were brought in such as docking TV and computer time for soiled pants and being made to clean up their mess themselves. Even disallowing treats for not obeying requests to go to the toilet. I'm not suggesting you do have a real go at him, but have you really made it clear to DS that you are going to get cross now if he disobeys you? (You would have to be really sure there is no neurological problem though) After all you'd get cross if he tramped mud all over your carpet, wouldn't you?

I think you could have a reward scheme, but it would have to be a big prize of something he really wants badly to entice him. You could have consequences also for wetting/soiling, refusing to clean up, refusing to go to the loo when asked, etc. You could implement a toilet routine, so that he goes whether he needs to or not, and you stand some chance of his being clean and dry, and also of him getting points towards his reward especially if he obeys without a fuss.

I can help a bit with the cleaning, Simple Solution pet cleaner from Pets at Home is an enzyme based spray on product that digests any organic matter on carpet and upholstery and also seems to get rid of smells as a result. Also works on vomit. For sofa protection, Pampers bed mats underneath a throw, a fleece one is quick to wash and dry. Or you could cut up a cheap vinyl shower curtain for sofa and chair seats, and place old towels on top, with fleece throw on top of that.

By the way, the night wetting has nothing to do with the daytime problems, it is purely developmental.

Thanks for replying to my very long message! As I started typing all the stress and frustration all just burst out of me!

I think what you say about we would tell him off if he got mud on the carpet so we should also make him see the consequences if he soils himself is a good point. The problem is we really don't know whether it is a neurological problem or not.

Sometimes he will sit wriggling his legs and is clearly desperate to wee but won't go if we ask him to. Sometimes he will go all by himself. Both of these times it is clear that he can feel the need to wee, which would point to it not being a neurological problem. So if he doesn't go to the toilet when he clearly needs to and we ask him to then we withdraw a treat, eg, switching the TV off, no pudding after tea, or whatever. And if he then wets himself because he wouldn't go to the toilet we do get him to change himself and put his own clothes in the washing machine (I switch it on!).

But then other times is really seems as though he has no idea it is happening and he seems surprised when there is a suddenly a wee or poo in his pants. Then we go through thinking it is a neurological or physical problem and feel guilty for being cross with him at other times.

So its difficult to keep a consistent approach because we have no idea what is causing it. I don't want to treat him as though he is doing it deliberately if he'd not. But I don't want to be too soft on him in case he is doing it on purpose!

We've told him the more he keeps doing this the less he will be invited to friends houses, because thir parents don't want to clean up his mess and that the older he gets the more his friends will tease him about being dirty and smelly. This made him really upset, which made us think he wasn't doing it on purpose.

But part of it seems to be a behavioural thing - we always ask him to go to the toilet before he leaves for school in the morning, and sometimes it is a real struggle to get him to sit on the toilet. We say it doesn't matter if you don't actually do anything, but we want you to try for a wee and a poo every morning. Sometimes he will sit on the toilet no problems, other times he will be kicking and screaming and refusing to even try for a wee.

We have tried the big rewards - he was actually promised a new bike if he could go for a week with no accidents, but he didn't manage it. We often say he can go to the toy shop to choose a new toy if he doesn't come home from school with wet/dirty clothes, but he has rarely managed this either.

Thanks for the cleaning info - I will look out for that - I'm starting to feel embarrassed about our house smelling.

Can you bribe him with Smarties (for a short time!) to sit on the loo every hour on the hour when he is at home to try to instil good habits? That's what I would do if he were three. And here it seems that he just hasn't quite "got" potty training, just like a three year old might.

iwouldgoouttonight I couldn't leave your post unanswered as my DD behaves exacly the same way, I could have written your post!

My DD (also 5) exhibits all of the behaviour described in your post even down to the reluctance to use the toliet or accept the fact that she needs to go.

I can't do a long reply now, but I just wanted to say that I completely feel your pain iwouldgoouttonight as at times I have felt like I am going insane dealing with this.

At times I am convinced DD is doing it on purpose and that we should give her consequences to make her realise that this is important and not acceptable behaviour. But then she will get upset or simply not know that she is wet and I begin to doubt this.

People say to ignore it as much as possible but when you have a child who is constantly wet and sitting on furniture and generally spreading wee everywhere there is only so much you can ignore!

Also until you experience it it is difficult to realise just how much impact this has on everyday life, the mountains of washing, the constant issue of going to the toilet and getting changed, generally planning your life around achild who you know is going to be wet and require changing every time you pick them up from school/after school club.

So got to get back to work, but big hugs and I feel your pain, but unfortunately I have no solutions and if you find one then please let me know!

TTFN

Sleepdeprived - I think I commented on your post about your DD because I could have written that too! Very good news that your DD has been dry for a few days. Fingers crossed it continues.

Although I'm not glad you are going through it too, I am glad its not just me and someone understands how much of an issue it becomes. I really try not to let it bother me, but I've even started to dread picking DS up from school because I know he will either have a bag of dirty clothes with him or he'll be wet and unhappy.

I emailed ERIC yesterday, and they have just replied. They had some helpful suggestions like getting him a 'big boy watch', which is one that ERIC sell on their website which you can set to vibrate at certain times in the day to encourage him to go to the toilet independently and take responsibility for it. A bit pricey though!

Might first try what Amaretti said, about bribing rewarding for using the toilet each hour. I might try setting an alarm (which he is responsible for switching off) when it is time to go. Feels a bit like going right back to square one when you are potty training and you put them on every half an hour, but I will try anything! If the alarm has any effect we could then get him the watch so he could use it at school.

I haven't read through your full post but have you been referred to see anyone at the hospital? Even though DS's physical tests have all come back negative I was wondering if they do any form of 'therapy' which helps DS to explain his toilet issues. But I have to wait until our next appointment in March to see what they suggest next.

It might have been someone on your thread, or possibly another, who said the therapist got photos of the family and asked the child to put them in order of who is most upset by the toiletting accidents. I thought I would try this with DS and he put DD at the top of the list and himself at the bottom! I asked him to explain and he said he wasn't bothered about wetting himself at all, but he thinks DD might be! (I think she is the only one who isn't bothered!)

Check again for constipation/ decal impacting as it is apparently under diagnosed. Then, seriously I would put him in pull ups. It's clearly a problem, probably medical even if not diagnosed, and at least the mess would be contained. If he can help it, beig in
Pull ups might fix it. If not, better in pull ups than making everything stink/ you wouldn't hesitate if he had been diagnosed incontinent.

Iwould, have you considered any possible links to what he eats or drinks which might affect his relustance to go voluntarily? I'm just thinking of a friend whose DS1 was never properly potty trained, and it took some years before she finally twigged that certain foods affected his behaviour (mainly citrus fruits and juice, chocolate, artificial colours and flavours, monosodium glutamate were ones she knew of) He was actually hyperactive if he had these, and really impulsive and disobedient. She always knew if he had eaten something secretly because the behaviour and toilet behaviour went downhill. His younger brother was unaffected.

It is sometimes seen that orange juice, blackcurrant squash, cola and fizzy drinks can affect the bladder in some children, they need to wee more and can have less control.

Might it be worth noting what he has and see if there is any link to the behaviour that follows, and see if he has better control and is more obedient when he hasn't had certain things?

Girlwhirly - he doesn't have orange juice, blackcurrant squash or fizzy drinks - he drinks water, orange squash or milk. Might orange squash have an effect? Good idea though - it is probably worth me making a note of what he eats and drinks and when his accidents are the worst to see if there is a link. I've not noticed any hyperactivity or particularly bad behaviour (apart from normal child stroppiness! ) though, apart from when he needs to use the toilet but won't, or when he's had an accident and won't talk about it.

Talkingnonsense - we've been really reluctant to put him back in pull ups, mainly because he will just wee in them and make no attempt to use the toilet. When he has his nappy on at night it is sometimes obvious that he's held onto his wee for ages (even standing in front of the toilet and refusing to go) and then as soon as his nappy is on he does it in there.

Pull ups would make things easier and less stressful in the short term but I'm not sure if it will solve the problem long term. I'm not dismissing anything at this point though, just thinking aloud.

I think you need to go right back to the beginning, because he has never properly mastered it. The smartie would be for sitting for a minute or so, regardless of whether anything came out. Then praise if anything does.

My DS1 is almost 6. And still having weeing accidents.

We went to the GP who tried to refer us but told no referral until 7! Luckily DH has medical insurance through work so we saw private pediatrician who gave us oxybutinin (you mentioned this) - it has helped a bit but not a magic answer, sadly still some accidents. Also he is still wet every night and wears pull ups.

I agree with Amaretti. Start at the beginning. I have observed with my DS1 if he goes the toilet every 2 hours he is very unlikely to wet himself. Try it over the weekend, how often does he need to go to stay dry? Start with 1 hourly (we tried cheapo digital watch from argos with hourly chime, had to go to toilet every time it chimed, the watch was very good as it put him in control). We have established that he needs 7-8 toilet trips a day to stay dry.

I am not cross with DS1 when he wets himself but he is punished for refusing to go to the toilet. Non negotiable. He has to go and try. He is also punished for doing whole wee in pants - he is supposed to rush straight to toilet when he feels it coming. DS1 does not have a pooing problem so can't comment on that but same would apply.

Start by saying he has a new watch:

watch

and its his responsibility to go to the toilet every time it bleeps. He has to try to both wee and poo. Star chart for going without fuss, but make it clear he has to go fuss or not. You will have to be very strict about this and get school onside.

If he still wets and poos despite trying every hour then I think you need to go back to GP.

At school DS1 (year 1) has a star chart at school and has to go at break, lunchtime and afternoon break. He is allowed to go to toilet in without even putting hand up, and he goes after school before we walk home (helps that he finishes 10 mins before DD so I remind him at pick up time, while waiting for DD).

Another thing the paediatrician said was counselling, said that if the oxybutinin didn't help then he would refer to child psychologist to explore reasons.

Iwould, it's possible that the squash might affect DS behaviour, but my friends' DS was affected by orange in all forms. Chocolate and hot chocolate contain caffeine in the cocoa which is a diuretic, this has the effect of stimulating the kidneys to produce more urine and more quickly. But white choc is fine as it doesn't contain the cocoa.

Monosodium glutamate is used in a wide range of foods, not just Chinese. It is found in stock cubes! You have to read the ingredients on all the brands to find out which don't include it, the Kallo ones don't contain it.

It will be worth trying all sorts of things just to find out if they will be successful, because if you decide to consult a child psychologist they will want to know all the things you've tried.

I think the watch/timer to remind it is toilet time is a good plan, you need some successes to be able to praise him for staying clean and dry. I wonder whether DS is really as happy as he appears to everyone, is he finding it hard being expected to grow up and cope with new things at school. It can be quite a jump in the level of work between reception and yr1, even if he appears to be attaining well he may be paddling furiously to keep his head above water. Possibly not going to the toilet means he has a level of control that is entirely his, he feels that keeping his poo close to him (in his pants) is comforting in some way.

Thank you again for all the advice. I think this weekend we will start with the hourly alarm and he has to go, and is rewarded with a sticker for going and a chocolate button if anything comes out.

I'm going to make an appointment to talk to his teacher about it again too - it would be good if he could go whenever he wanted without having to ask. He did say he doesn't like putting his hand up and saying he needs a wee. A couple of weeks ago he made a flag with a picture of someone doing a wee on one side and someone doing a poo on the other! He said he wanted to hold it up if he needed a wee or poo instead of having to ask to go. We talked about it because it is a really good idea in theory, but we all agreed that it might end up drawing more attention to him, especially with the quite graphic illustrations he'd drawn!! So it will be good if we can get the teacher to remind him to go every hour, as well as at break/lunch times, but in a discreet way.

Its half term next week so a good time to really work on it as he will either be with me, DP or my parents (who he is really close to).

I'll keep you up to date with progress!

Rather frustratingly, I have just had a package in the post from the hospital - they had promised to send me information to help with wetting and soiling as its a long wait until our next appointment. It is a huge document about bedwetting in over eight-year-olds! I feel like phoning and asking if they actually remember seeing DS who is 5 years-old and we are primarily concerned with daytime wetting!

OP - my DS had ALL the symptoms of your ds and our paediatricians like yours told us it was not impaction - they said there was no medical reason and it must be behavioural. We eventually found out by xray that it was impaction after demanding a 3rd opinion after DS had suffered for years.

All the symptoms you are reporting such as excessive night wetting, damp patches on pants plus day wetting are classic symptoms of impaction. There does not need to be ovbious signs of straining or constipation for it to be impaction. Unless they have xrayed you cannot be sure it is not impaction as it cannot always be felt.

My DS appeared happy to sit in wet or soiled clothes and refused to go to the toilet but it does not mean it is behavioural. Kids may be very confused at not understanding why their bodies dont work like other peoples and always in pain but unable to express it. Please do not get cross with him.

Please insist on a proper diagnosis as we believed the professionals and then got referred to CAMHS who then tried to build a case for abuse as there was no obvious reason for the problem and we felt they had to find something to justify their role. They nearly destroyed our lives and certainly caused my DS to suffer further pain and bullying at school being called stinky. Then they tried to cover everything up and never even apologised.

Go private for speed and it may pay for itself saving you extra washing and pants in the long term. I would have paid anything for the correct diagnosis as it is the most stressful situation as you well know.

foreverondiet - my ds was wetting excessively like yours and within 2 weeks on movicol he was dry day and night. One of the symptoms of faecal impaction is needing to wee more than once an hour or 8 times a day. Other symptoms are excessive night wetting and damp patches on pants.

It was only once DS was on movicol that we realized that he actually had had no bladder control at all becasue of the impaction and just didnt have any warning so it is worth considering this. How is your DS at night?

Foreverondiet - is that link the watch you have? It says on the Q&A that it only has one alarm setting?

Camhsdestroyedme - I'm really sorry to hear what you went through - that sounds awful. Hearing that makes me more confused about whether it is behavioural or not. This is what is making us so frustrated - not knowing whether he is doing it deliberately to maybe gain some sense of control if he is feeling insecure, or whether he has no control over it at all and it is a medical problem. The way we try to help him needs to be different depending on what is causing it.

Out of interest, and I hope this isn't too personal a question, how much did you pay for private treatment? Do you have to be referred by your GP or is there somewhere you can go to directly? Sorry, I've never paid for medical treatment before and I don't know how to go about it. It is something we would consider (if we can afford it) as the process of waiting for appointments, etc is really adding to the frustration.

we were given a vibrating watch on the NHS and DS would go when it rang but of course it didnt solve the problem as the problem wasnt actually caused by not being bothered to go.

we didnt go private - biggest mistake of my life as I trusted the NHS. To see a paediatrician privately you need referral by a GP but that can be a private GP not necessarily your NHS GP. Just ring your local private hospital for quotes as there will be GPs there too so it may all be able to be done quickly.

Remember 95% of children with soiling is due to impaction, some of the 5%have other conditions so only a very small minority are due to behavioural and most likely have some SN or suffered abuse so it is NOT the likely option and best to rule out the 95% area fully first.

Our 3rd opinion where they finally xrayed and made the diagnosis was done on NHS I just wrote to the head of paediatrics at the local NHS hospital and asked them to confirm in writing that they were certain they had done full investigations and ruled out things like impaction by xray and quoted some of the NICE guidelines and listed the symptoms again. I got a phone call the very next day to come in that day for xray due to a cancellation!!! We had diagnosis and prescription within 2 days. This could be a route worth a try for yourself i can strongly recommend it, just wish I had thought of it sooner. I now only deal with medical professionals in writing now, far safer and results have been absolutely amazing.

Thanks again camhsdestroyedme (your name makes me feel so sad for you) - I think I'm going to try to get an idea of how much private treatment would cost. Unfortunately my job is at risk at the moment so we're having to be careful with money, but it will be useful for me to have an idea of the cost all the same. I'm going to push for an xray at our next appointment too - the paediatrician only examined by touch so we definitely want to find out for certain. And like you say, if we get no answers then I will put it all in writing.

Going to pick up DS from school now so not sure when I'm going to get on the computer again, but thanks everyone for all your advice.

I think if you try the plan that you outlined above then it will be useful either way. It might work. And if it doesn't then it is powerful evidence to ask for investigations. I wouldn't suggest every hour to the teacher though, as i think it will be impossible for her to do, just every break time (and the start and end of lunch) which is still four times between 9 and 3.

Hi all.

1. Watch has one alarm but has setting for hourly chime.

1. DS1 not having any poo issues. The paediatrician discussed poos with him in detail but he has never ever soiled himself (apart from when being toilet trained aged 2) so don't think impaction is the issue - he seems to poo regularly and poos aren't hard. Plus we have established he needs 7-8 wees a day to stay dry.

1. He is still soaking every night, and wears pull ups. Never ever had a dry night.

1. re: school. I think you need to go into school and demand:

a) star chart etc for going at break, lunch, break. A number of the year 1 kids in his class have star charts for various things eg not fighting! b) he is allowed to slip out in lessons without asking to go - both these things have made a big difference to DS1. Often comes home dry which is huge progress. Or tell them about watch and say he is going to slip out every hour on the hour - this is what DS1 did in reception, teacher was fine with this.

1. DH has private medical insurance though work but it only covers 90% I think each appointment (we had 2) was £180 so we had to pay £18 each time. We saw Dr. Anthony Cohn - based in Watford, specialises in childhood toilet issues:

[[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Constipation-Withholding-Your-Child-Soiling/dp/1843104911/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328998154&sr=1-5 his book] - if you live anywhere near Watford maybe try and see him on NHS?

1. One of the things Dr Cohn suggested that enabled him to diagnose irritable bladder was to measure DS1's wees when he was desperate. Even though he was desperate the wees were small and so Dr concluded he couldn't have full bladder.

Reading your message took me right back to when my DS was 5 years and was soiling daily at school - as you say the smell lingers with you 24/7 :-( He potty trained at 3 years with little problem but did have the odd 'accident' mainly when he was busy playing etc. However the problem set in in ernest during his first couple of years at school. He came home most days either with soiled pants and stinking to high heaven or with the tell tale carrier bag in hand with soiled pants in. We tried everything in the way of incentives .. he could wear boxer shorts if he went to the loo etc etc but to no avail. We really came up against it at school though with an attitude of it was a health & safety issue for teaching staff and other pupils but with little thought of the impact of the child or so it seemed. One memorable day was when I was hauled into the Head and witnessed my very embarrassed and upset child being bawled out for being a dirty boy who would have no friends. I involved the school nurse to help with some strategies but again with little improvement. In the end I made it his complete responsibility that if he did have an accident then he had to clean himself up as it was clear that there was a behaviour element to it. It also became clear that this was an issue at school but not at home and yet school would not have it that there was a trigger at school. Eventually after many appointments with the paediatrician it was decided that he may be constipated and was put on lactulose. After about 1 month on the medication the soiling improved dramatically and continued to do so. So... stick with the paediatrician, stick with all the strategies you are using cos it sounds like you are doing all the right things.

Sorry to butt in but i remember vividly when my oldest DS was potty training my HV telling me that Kiora orange juice had something in it that made children go to the toilet. He used to have accidents all the time when he had it but when we changed to another brand he didnt have the accidents.

I feel for you all in that situation. Cant be easy.

Just a quick update - we've been using DP's old phone which we've let DS keep in his pocket - it has an alarm which goes off every hour. We let DS record his own message in it so every hour it is DS shouting 'time to go for a wee DS!' on repeat! So today and yesterday he's been quite excited by being allowed to borrow DP's phone and have responsibility for going to the toilet each time. It seems to work a bit like Pavlov's dog in that even if he's been for a wee between the hourly alarms, as soon as the alarm goes off he wanders off to the toilet forgetting that he went about ten minutes ago!

I think its partly the novelty of it thats making him happy to go regularly, and partly because we're paying him lots of attention and rewarding him each time he goes to the toilet. Poor DD is now feeling left out and after successfully potty training her she has had four accidents this weekend! I will try to remain calm!

This afternoon DS has been to the toilet nine times - when the alarm goes off and in between. He's also let us when when he has wet pants. So he does seem to need to go an awful lot, but its not always very much each time. The medication for an irritable bladder didn't have any effect though so I'm not sure it is that.

We will carry on with the alarm over half term and I'm going to look into the cost of private appointments locally (we're not near Watford unfortunately - thanks for the link foreverondiet) and still wait for the next NHS appt, as I'm worried that private treatment may be too expensive for us.

Another thought is to make sure that when he does go he is emptying his bladder. I described it as trying to wee again until nothing comes out.

But if he had wet himself despite having being 9 times does sounds like the alarm is not the answer.

I think you should keep on going with what you are doing over half term, write everything down (ie when he went, when he weed and go back to GP and insist on nhs referral.)

How you doing iwould?

We have bought the eric vibrating watch and so far so good. Has 8 different alarms. No one can tell its a special watch, no on else can hear it vibrate. DS1 can feel it whether on arm or in his pocket. He goes to toilet when it vibrates. We worked out he needs 7 wees (2 hourly) to stay dry. Set it during class and not break as i know he wont miss football if it vibrates but will miss class-time!

Have agreed if he stays dry all week will cut back on medication.

Hi foreverondiet. We have also bought the Eric watch after using the alarm on the phone was quite successful. For the whole of half term he went whenever the watch vibrated and was very pleased to have his own 'grown up' watch. He seems to need to go every hour to stay dry, but that is fine if he actually goes.

Unfortunately since he's been back at school this week he has come home wet and/or dirty every day. His teacher said he's not been going every hour so at first she wondered whether his watch was working properly or if he'd managed to switch it off, but it is working, he has just been ignoring it. So the teacher used her watch and reminded him to go every hour, which helped, but he still had an accident before he came home.

Two mornings this week he has had either a poo or wee in his pants before he's even left for school - he'd only been dressed and out of his nighttime nappy for about half an hour!

Yesterday was better and although his pants were damp and smelly when he got undressed at night, he hadn't had any visible accidents and he was in a much better and more cooperative mood because of it. This morning he went into the bathroom by himself, sat down, did a poo, wiped his own bottom and got up - all without a fuss!! So we were very pleased. It shows he can do it sometimes, so why not all the time??!

I phoned the hospital this week because we'd been told we were getting another appointment with the paediatrician, and they said the waiting list is really long and its going to be at least another two months before we get an appointment. The waiting is so frustrating. I've investigated private hospitals but the cost is !