are you going to vote yes or no in the referendum on voting systems?

[edam]

Apparently on 5th May next year we'll be asked if we want to keep first past the post or go for alternative vote.

Personally I don't like AV where you rank candidates in order of preference, as it causes odd things to happen. FPTP isn't perfect but neither is AV.

But my main reason for - probably - voting 'no' would that I'm pissed off with the Lib Dems. This is their cherished prize for giving the Tories cover for savage attacks on the poor and public services and betraying many/most of their voters (and people who were tempted to vote for them). So fuck 'em.

I should add that the Lib Dems lose most of all out of the major parties. The bias against the Tories is present but relatively small - but the system really conspires against the Lib Dems.

Edam, I've read it in the Guardian. Nuff said, surely!

GiddyPickle Scotland is no longer hugely overrepresented but Wales is.

The Isle of Wight is a special case. I don't think you should use it as an illustrative example really. But there are lots of huge Tory constituencies on the mainland alongside tiny Labour constituencies.

There won't be any referendum on the number of constituencies and the boundary redistribution procedure. That will happen anyway.

The referendum will only be on AV versus FPTP.

Ok, I lied about starting a new thread.

This article is quite interesting I think - it says some of the same things as the ukpolling paper linked to further up, but crucially puts the same issues into IMO a broader perspective. Such as, the timespan between Boundary Commission reviews was reduced 50 years ago because of the instability factor of frequent reviews; such as, there has always been an electoral bias, but it has shifted from favouring Conservatives to favouring Labour in recent years; such as, the differential turnout issue has been increased because of the parties' logical (under FPTP) policy of concentrating effort on getting out the vote in marginal constituencies.

I do think that the ukpolling article that you linked to has a bias of its own, longfingernails (I would, since I disagree with the bias! - anyway, everything has a bias, so it's unfair of me to say that like it's unusual.) Firstly, it stated at the top as undisputed fact that the current system favoured Labour, and then gave several headings, only 1 or at most 2 of which actually did favour Labour. Secondly, it stated that bias as though it had always existed, which is not the case. Thirdly, it used biased examples, e.g. in the differential turnout paragraph it gave an example turnout of 90% for the Conservative constituency versus 10% for the Labour constituency. In this EXTREMELY pro-labour biased site, the respective turnout is given as 68.3% in seats won by the Conservatives, 61.2% in seats won by Labour.

End result is, however, that since 1997 the system has definitely resulted in a bias towards Labour. Just nothing like as egregious or as deliberate a bias as I have seen mentioned in some commentariat pieces.

I'd agree with you that FPTP is apt to spin a lead into a crushing advantage over third parties. Which is why I am thinking about voting for AV.

I agree that third and minor parties have a harder time under FPTP - that is pretty obvious.

But I regard that as an acceptable price to pay for generally electing strong majority governments.

Every electoral system has benefits and drawbacks.

Yup, fair enough. I certainly felt the same for a long time (even before the party I support started winning...) I will look at the referendum pretty closely.

Ireland has had a very stable political system with PR, no limits on the number of votes cast (except you can't vote for more candidates than there are on the ballot in your constituency), and governments that have tended to be centre right or centre left for decades.

A strong majority is actually a rarity in Irish politics, and I believe when there is a strong majority in the UK, government has more of a tendency to fracture, fiddle around and achieve little, or fall apart due to scandals, etc. Having the electorate and the other parties breathing down your neck is a very strong motivating factor for the average political party in government. Keeps them on their toes.

The nuances of Irish tactical voting are fascinating and much studied -- should be very informative to British voters trying to decide on this. Despite the existence of a few small parties and even individuals from time to time holding a disproportionate amount of power on paper, the possibility of calling another election always exists.

Small party or individual representatives get elected when the larger parties fail to respond to the issues in any given constituency, as in the case of the economically disadvantaged one represented by Tony Gregory, TD, which had been effectively ignored by the major parties until he suddenly found himself in the position of kingmaker at one point in the 80s.

I live in Canada now and we also have FPTP. The last two elections have resulted in minority governments, with very strong government doing really fairly bad things (and really out of character from what I have observed from Canadian attitudes) and very weak oppositions. It's not very democratic and people's interest and apathy towards government is very very high. I'd not like the UK to move that way.

I don't think that AV is the right approach to choose, but it's a step in the right direction, an my feeling is that if it gets rejected any possibility of getting something better in the future pretty much disappears.

But I won't be voting because I think it is wrong that as an ex-pat I can vote on something that won't actually affect me.

I will vote yes....I happen to quite like the coalition and think it is about time the parties have to work together a bit.
I don't think AV is perfect but the current system is rubbish!!!
I can't believe so many people are against it actually

maktaitai - the Guardian campaigned for the Lib Dems.

The so-called 'huge' Tory constituencies are huge in geography, not in population. The entirely independent Boundary Commission tries to adjust boundaries to reflect shifts in population. If you have any complaints or ideas about how they could do a better job, I'm sure they'd like to hear from you.

Giddy - clearly our current electoral system isn't PR so doesn't reflect national share of the vote. Cameron's votes this time may have been distributed differently across constituencies than Blair's in 97. If he got huge majorities in safe seats, that would account for it. My own constituency had a 20,000 Tory majority - so essentially 19,999 of those votes were 'wasted'.

Tories are free to campaign harder in marginal seats - in fact they have been bankrolled to do just that by someone who was avoiding paying full UK taxes but sat in our parliament making the laws the rest of us have to live by. (And the Lib Dems were bankrolled by a convicted criminal who stole the money they were using and have refused to give back to the victims.)

Hey edam, I like your post BUT to be fair, if someone makes donations, and then years later is convicted of a crime, how can you say those particular £s were crime £s?

However I dont like our laws being made by someone who claims not to even live in this country. Cant believe it took the conservative over 10 years to hush it up 'find out'.

I only have one criteria. If it keeps Labour out of power for ever I will vote for it.

I want to see a return to the old Whig (Liberal) and Tory two party system in England of the 19th and Early 20 century before Labour was created.

Why? Why would you want to live in a country with no real Opposition? How odd.

I want the Lib Dems and the right of the Labour party to join together as an opposition.

What I never want to see is another Gordon Brown style tax and spend Govt that leaves the country in such a dire financial state and a bloated client state of public sector and benefit dependents. That outcome has happened after every single Labour Govt that has ever been in office.

It's not exactly deeply analytical of me, but I'm in the 'voting no just to piss of the LibDems' camp.

Liked RavenAK's post way up-thread
"Currently I would vote against free beer & in favour of setting fire to fluffy kittens if I thought it would piss off the Lib Dems.

Not a terribly mature attitude I know, but bollocks to them. Grrrr."