Anyone else going off Clegg?

[dinosaurinmybelly]

I thought he was very cocky last night, interrupting the others several times to slag off their debating style rather than their policies. It was probably justified in one instance, but certainly not the 4 or so times that he did it - in fact it was annoying that he interrupted what was good quality debate at times.

I'm starting to worry about exactly how much he would listen to the public if he were elected. I didn't like his comment that he was a negotiator "on behalf of all of us" in his early career. How much do we know about this guy? Who would be his key advisors if he were to govern, and how much would he actually listen to them? I love the idea of electoral reform and a fresh new government, but is this really the time to be electing someone with less experience, who is pro-Europe, sketchy on defence, and populist on the economy?

very sanctimonious

very wise and fair and just

Thank you SanctiMonayArse for clarifying - I just didn't want to think that you were suggesting that DC's policies were the ones that would deny you help in your current situation, when it seems to me that they are the only ones that would.

I can see how the viewpoints you mention may have been valid in the past, but there have been so many instances where fraudulent claims are actually putting those in need at risk, so I don't think it is so straightforward anymore. We need to properly address benefit fraud and get help to people who share in DC's vision of social responsibility.

I too am a big fan of PR, but not at the expense of all the other serious issues that need addressing at the moment. How do you feel about NC's policies on getting our economy back on track, keeping our country safe, and ensuring that old people and other vulnerable members of society get the help they need from the NHS and other government entities?

Dinosaur - are you indeed David Cameron?

I totally agree with you Sancti re that choice re benefit claimants.

I too would prefer us to have a comprehensice welfare system which covers all those in need, as opposed to one which is cut to the bone because of benefit fraud.

If we want to make huge swathes of cuts, I suggest that we look at the levels of bureacracy and ridiculous amounts spent on McKinseys etc in areas of NHS management etc. Ditto ridiculously overblown IT projects which are uneccesary and viewed (by the private sector companies engaged thus) as cash cows. And tighten up contracts where you have outsourced servives to companies such as Capita, well known in the private sector to target public sector depts and bleed them dry. If I know this, as a bog standard member of the public, surely those in power do, and they should damn well do something about it, as opposed to funding Benefit Cheat hotlines, as targeting the most vulnerable of society.

Big Society a poor idea

I am the peson they mean there: in process setting up sibling support group

But think about where services are very poor indeed- a browse through SN, trip to the local sink school, etc

What you won't find tehre is a group of empowerd people with the time and ability or energy to set up alternatives

What you will get is already empowered people setting up more of their clique services

I mean, if you hated our local chool (Actually quite posh but anyway) and wanted to establish another, would you acept ds1, ASD, who ahs a hbit of hitting kids at breaktime and is a low achieer academically?

Course not, I probably wouldn't if I were them (well I would as I am a wet softie but ykwim)

He'll be further marginalised into agrotty school, but I, as a mother with two disabled kids, amd not going to be able to set up my opwn alternatives am I? I'm lucky to manage 4 hours sleep and to get through the day without a minor meltdown

My background is voluntary sector management: the things I have seen real results from- surestarts etc- seem to be things that the Tories want to change in comepletely teh opposite way to what they need. Don't amrginalise Surestart centres into underclass ghettos, instead expland them so everyone can use them0 community not minority. get in the elderly people for daycare, pop in a summer disability respite scheme, get the MC class kids playing footie with the WC ones.

Don't amrginalise into those that can and those that can't, instead mix it up and let the kids find soemthing to be inspired by that isn't the dole queue, gang culture or gewtting knocked up at 15. Give elderly people something betwen indpendence and ending up in a homebecuase they were alone all day and had a fall / didn;t feed themselves / couldn't afford the heating. Don't give elderly heating grants to mega rich pensioners but DO give them to those who are registered disabled (Tories voted against that). Don't stop carers benefit if someone enters education, let them have the chance to get a career that actually covers hugely hiked chidlcare costs (becuase one is still a carer when they get home after all, and in the summer when theyc an't work like other students and can't claim CA either).

Expand the mentoring schmes that go into poeples lives and make a real difference- homestart, edcucatinal mentoring, business mentoring- they work (mainly becuase feeling vakued means a lot), instead of cutting funds (both the Uni and Homestart mentoring schemes I ahve been invovled with were pulled becuase of funding).

The best way to save money for the economy is to let people achieve their potential, work and pay taxes. So mcuh seems to work against that these days.

Rant over PMSL.

I'd vote for you Sancti (but put a red rosette on, not a yellow one )

Happily no - am not David Cameron

I'm sorry if coming across a bit strong, but I do think it is important to be open-minded and focus on the policies that these guys are putting forward as well as their capacity for leadership before voting. If you are not inspired by any of the parties, then fair enough - but don't ignore some of the policies these guys might have that could actually benefit you just because of how they look or where they went to school. If everyone did that, we'd be raising our children in a very horrible society and that is such a sad thought to me...

I'm actually a SAHM to 2 little boys with another baby due in a few weeks, so I'm very focused at the moment about their future, and how my vote may shape that..

Agree with sanct

Which is why I was persuaded by NC and the not taxing on first £10,000 income.

it does make sense if you want to incentivize those with less to get work and stay in work and make it worth their while

That sounds like a better message for those without than cut off benefit, and if you don't like it then stuff it, it's up to you, you're on your own, it's DC's big society dontchaknow.

Dinsosaur can I ask something?

whilst not denying that there are indeed fraudulent claims, have you ever held or read a copy of the DLA claim form? or even filled one in?

ANYTHING that makes that more complex will harm people in genuine need, even the form as it is makes for a bloody nightamre but at elast it works on the basis of actual need rather than label attahced).

I asked DC, GB and NC what they thought wrt to disability benefits. GB and DC appear to support a system where decisio0ns on such things are shifted to SSD. now in essence OK- except that SSD are shrinking the range of people they help constantly, and the ones near us for example don't class autism as in need of services.

They ahven't said they will definiteky do this, but did say they were considering.

Benefit fraud can be best tackled wrt to systems that have no real communicatyions in palce, and of course that odl chestnut- actually ahving jobs available for people to go to (but of course I am in SE Wales, recession capital of the UK, top three anyway) so that just looks obvious I guess

To be honest I would probably be better off voting for the tories, I am a 40% tax payer and my DH owns a small business, and the conservatives always look after the ones who earn.

However I cannot bring myself to adopt the necessary laissez faire attitude, and think that the poor and disenfranchised in this society are better off under labour, always will be.

Don't think you're coming across strong - we are all pretty opinionated on this thread. Good thing imo.

I agree a thousand times with ahundredtimes - I wonder if this thread's been started by a Tory stitching circle ? Cameron looked really nasty, despite the botox, not prime ministerial at all. Cleggy 4 me now and on the 6th.

GetOrf I've worn teh red one for a good few eyars but think we need a change atm

I float between the two but prefer LD polciies right now

And have to go get kids before am in trouble LOL

No Dino, not too opinionated at all. Just nicely polished

I should be such a tory voter too

Agreed GetOrfMoiLand - I'd vote for Sancti too. Those are excellent points Sancti and I think driven by a real passion for changing society. I too do think you belong in the GB or the DC camp though - but appreciate I shouldn't be telling you how to vote, so will stop there..

Incidently DC is proposing cost-cutting by getting rid of these consultancy projects etc, not by funding a benefit fraud hotline (crazy idea really whoever thought of it - just turns society on its head encouraging people to taut on each other). Also - was very impressed by his point last night that government should be giving 25% of its commissions to smaller businesses. That would be fantastic and would really make those business owners feel like stakeholders again. Too often these tenders are given to big companies, with the decision-makers taking back-handers to secure the contract.

I've just remembered that NC's one reference to creating a better society last night consisted of him waving his hands around and saying it was something "philosophical". It isn't philosophical - how we gel together and regard each other as members of a society is a very real concept!!

Haven't filled in a DLA claim form, but have filled in other claim forms and agree the format is already confusing. I've commented many times to DH that if I am struggling with dealing with these things, then I really don't know how my poor parents, or other vulnerable people with no support actually do it. I can only imagine what it is like for carers who are already stretched for time...

I know this is going to sound like I'm really going on now, but wasn't it DC who mentioned in the first debate that he had found these claim forms difficult too? I didn't hear him give a concrete solution though....

Really appreciate your comments - especially sancti and ahundredtimes. As for CleggyBlonde....[hmmm]

Thingv with Dc is, it must have been hellish having to sort out care for Ivan and I can't imagine. Buit IME aprents of kids wqith really severe sn go either way- some (like 2ashoes on here) are great; most even, really understanding. Just a few get competitive about services, or think how lucky you are (and of course my boys' SN is lucky compared to a life threatening syndrome) and think you take their funding / should get on with it

So having a PM with experiene of Sn may be great, or could be the opposite for kids more like mine (Ds3 will always need care, ds1 could go either way tbh)

Plus i've been yelled at on here byu tories for needing support, and dh's situation doesn't go down well at all (basically Dh was amde redundant: there's now ork in his field- 3/4 jobs locally in his sector gone- so he started a small business and signed up for a practical degree; to me, he is doing his best and better than sitting at home: MN however have ahd to delete posts from tory voters calling him all sorts. In fact theyc alle dhim all sorts for being unemployed when he was sick years ago and still holding down 2 jobs

Labour will get in here or LD. Our labour candidate is pretty awful, the ld's locally ehlped me get ds3's statement sorted. Which explains why my vote goes where it does LOL

Oha nd dla- yikes! they want everything broken down into minutes' so you ahve a child like ds3 with severe communication issues- how many minutes a day do you need to help h9im- erm all of them?

And IIRC it's 40 pages of the same

sancti so sorry to hear you've had to suffer nasty comments from Tory voters. It sounds to me like you and your husband deserve their respect for how you have responded to the path your life has taken so far.
Sounds like you have a good LD candidate in your area - and that would swing it for me too... hope your husband's business plans go well..

Thank you dino, appreciated

Remember - a party leader is more easy to change than the party itself once they are in power. I think whats in the manifestos are the most important thing because it is a team of people that implement change, not just the leader of the party. So flippin heck - why do people seem to have such unrealistic expectations about the abilities of one single human when we all know no one is PERFECT. I mean, ... these guys are not only expected to be able to run the entire country but ALSO be flawlessly media savvy and telegenic. The irony is, that in order to get a TV appearance perfectly attuned to a target audience (in this case the ENTIRE country!!!), you probably need to be more self-conscious of your body language, posture, tone of voice etc as well as be able to relate to everyone in a personable, relaxed and unselfconscious manner. Therefore, if they had 'presented' themselves perfectly with nil complaints, they would probably have been the least authentic and a big performance act. Could anyone here do any better?

Sancti I am firmly in the Tory camp (having always voted Labour previously but no more), and what you and your DH are doing sounds perfect to me - ie. you are doing everything that you can to improve your situation. The fact that temporarily you are taking from the 'pot' rather than putting into it is irrelevant IMO.

Surely it has got to be a good thing the DC has experience of SN from a carer/parent's point of view, albeit experience cushioned by money?

Well I hope it is a good thing Ali, am cynical but...

Plus there's also the thing that really, DC is a single person. It's great he does have but I still don't feel a priority for the tory ethos.

however tories here a distant third so in fact it's irrelevant- it's not a seat they even glance at tbh. Lab - LD fight all the way here.

Feeling rather uncomfortable about it, having voted labour since Thatcher snatched our milk, closed our coal pits and made being a student cost ....... buuut ..... Mr. Cameron is beginning to make sense, at least where special needs policies are concerned, because he DOES actually understand it.
Uuugh, what's that bad taste in my mouth? I feel so grubby now . Is it just that I wouldn't trust the PM as far as I could throw him (so - no distance at all then) and Clegg just makes my skin crawl. Lesser of 3 evils? Back to the shot, stabbed or strangled ... guess I'm going with stabbed then, as it depends on WHERE you're stabbed. I'll take the right shoulder please.

Mr Cameron makes perfect sense to me. Think Clegg is an impulse buy that you won't be able to return to the shop the next week.