so if labour aren't still in power on 7th may...

[duckyfuzz]

what will change?

Well said, Skihorse.

leningrad With all due respect - if these "abilities" are not already held in the family then I'm not sure these kids have much of a future anyway.

Still... I don't mind paying for some underprivileged mum to learn what a carrot is if the rest of you don't mind paying for my wee Cuthbert's skiing lessons.

This is an honest question, to jollypirate and anyone else that has an opinion - are surestart centres really so useful? In my town, the local surestart centre duplicates a lot of services that are already available. It is the same situation with bookstart. We spend money on giving away books when they can be borrowed from the local library for free.

Is it so different in other areas?

And to answer the OP, I think even if Labour do get in they are under a lot of pressure to tackle the budget deficit, so there will be cuts regardless of who is voted in.

If the budget situation is really as dire as economists say, cutting activities such as surestart will be the least of our concerns.

Boiledegg, it's a good question. I tried to refuse the Bookstart book pack for my DCs on the grounds that we already had the books in the pack (along with about three thousand others - and I am not exaggerating there. I am obsessed with books. I write the pesky things!) The HV (who was handing out the packs at immunisation time) said that was okay, but she would have to make a note on the children's medical records that I had refused the pack. This in turn meant that the children would be 'flagged up' as needing extra educational support, and I'd be flagged up as a parent who was not sufficiently interested in promoting literacy. Total rot, obviously, but I decided it was easier to accept the packs and give the books to the charity shop. Sounds to me like a waste of governmental money.

MumMeh, that's unbelieveable

Yep, [shocked] was my response too!

MumMeh, that is appalling!

I'll be very worried. Quite depressed.
The Tory party is an anachronism to me. What's their relevance today? What do they really stand for? Has anyone at leadership of this party ever been seriously challenged, any of them really had to work hard to get were they are. Jobs for the boys, that's my opinion. No talent. No solutions. No imagination. Just scaremongering and the usual conservative arrogance and stupidity.
I'd love for the Lib dems to be a real option, but I wouldn't like to vote for them and leave the door open to the conservatives.
I'll vote as last time, warts & all. I'll give them another chance to sort this mess out.

So, skihorse, you don't have any children and you don't live in the UK? Doesn't sound like you have a heck of a lot of empathy either.
I'm glad you are so privileged. Plenty of us aren't, through choice or circumstance, and we need the likes of SureStart, tax credits to make it possible to work and live, etc. I don't know how I will cope or survive if the tories come in, along with most other LPs, and other lower earning families.

I'm hoping the obsession with creating databases will stop. Children database, patients database, ID cards. The government (both flavours) have historically been terrible at implementing big systems and they either get scrapped after money is spent or go three times over budget.

Labour won't scrap them because it would be seen as a u-turn (what a ridiculous reason for not saving a few billion we can't afford)so we need a change of government to get rid of them.

Then all the money we save can go on things we really need.

notevenamouse I'm 36 and pregnant with my first, what I've done will probably come as a shock to you. I waited until I could afford to have children. Yes, I waited - and I'm taking responsibility for my actions. I don't expect others to pay for and raise my children.

Frankly, I can't afford to pay for your family when I'm paying for yours too.

Please refer to my earlier post where I compare healthy eating lessons for your child and I'll take skiing lessons for mine.

Sorry - didn't get back to this thread so did not answer skihorse and others regarding childrens centres.

No - in some cases these families have experienced very poor parenting themselves so there really is not family support or experience to help. I agree that such things as Baby Massage are the fluffy end of the spectrum but actually provide a way of getting families in to access some of the other services there. If you've never been taught to cook for example then preparing a healthy meal on a budget does not come naturally - offer cooking groups and many mothers (in the deprived area I work within) would run a mile. Offer baby massage etc and they will show an interest. Getting people in to baby massage enables them to see a friendly and welcoming centre so that the other more valuable stuff does not look quite so scary. This is a service to improve the health of the children in these families and it's not an overnight results thing either, possibly we may need to wait 20+ years to see the results.
Many families can provide the things which childrens centres offer but the sad fact is that many can not and it's not a babysitting/nanny state issue to be saying "we need to offer services to support the most vulnerable members of our society". Nothing nanny state about that - more a caring society which looks after it's needy. One of the things I love about the UK.

And..... I worked with a mother recently whose PND left her unable to leave the house (middle class mother - not one of my so called "vulnerable" families). With her consent I referred her into the Children's Centre, the Outreach worker spent months visiting her weekly and befriending her until she felt enough trust and confiodence in the worker to attempt short walks around the block going a bit further each time. I call that good support which she would not have had otherwise so yes - I think the service is worth every penny.

I am glad for you skihorse that you waited until you could afford your baby and many congratulations to you - so did I if that matters but the fact is that you cannot always plan what will happen in life. I did not know my husband had a gambling addiction which virtually bankrupted us and I now have to live alone as a single parent. Guess what? If you are a UK tax payer then you give me more back in tax credits than I pay in tax. C'est la vie.

I actually know that Labour et al are scaremongering with regard to Childrens Centres. They are likely to remain open but I suspect that serious decisions will face whoever is prime minister and inevitably it will be the most vulnerable members of society who suffer. I don't believe either that the Tory Party will inundate my area with HV's - it costs thousands to train HVs and the money is not going to be there to do so. In any case some of the familie I work withprefer to see an outreach worker who does not come with the title of HV.

Politicians eh?

Hi JollyPirate, what you are doing with families in your area sounds great. I imagined that the surestart centres differ in what they offer according to the local need and their management. Housing is a very high cost in proportion to wages where I live (south west england) but there isn't much deprivation to tackle in my town, which is why I was curious.

Labour are scaremongering about the tories getting rid of surestart. It is the usual tricks that politicians get up to on the run up to a general election.

.........and Skihorse you are comparing want with need. Your child will not suffer if he/she does not have skiing lessons - a child with a poor diet DOES suffer - fact.
Your child will have a good diet, excellent and interested parents, and total stability by the sounds of it and thats fantastic but not all families are like that. My job and the role of surestart centres is to try and make a difference to the most needy who don't have the resources (not just financial) to ensure health and stability.

boiledegg - the surestart centre I refer into is health run and I am so grateful for the services it offers. They seem to be run by different organizations all over the UK. I used to work in Chard, Somerset and the childrens centre/surestart centre there was run by NCH but still offered good support. Here in the south-east there are a mixture of health and council led centres. They all offer excellent support.

'Has anyone at leadership of this party ever been seriously challenged, any of them really had to work hard to get were they are.' and Gordon Brown has held a series of real jobs then has he? I can remember him on Nationwide (this dates me) saying that leaks from Civil servants about what the (then) Tory govt was up to was acceptable. Seems only to apply when in opposition methinks.

Notevenamousie - just because Skihorse and I live abroad, doesn't mean that we don't vote in the UK; nor that we are not interested. My mum holds my proxy and that of my husband and will be voting for us in May.

Kathyjelly and Herbietea - I quite agree. The obsession has seemed to be getting mothers with children over secondary age back into the workplace - the change to Home Responsibilities Protection with child benefit illustrates this only too well.

By withdrawing HRP from women with secondary age children who may not have enough contributions for their pension they are either making them pay up voluntary contributions if they want a full state pension, or making them go back to work to pay the NI if they can't afford voluntary contributions; the alternative being that they don't get a full state pension when they reach 68.

Incidentally Riven, I emailed Mr Cameron for you, and suggested that he make good on his promise.

HRP should mean that you have a fair contribution towards your pension already. For each full financial year you get child benefit you get HRP which counts towards your state pension entitlement if you don't work.

For instance, I worked from 18-20, then from 24-40 (break for a degree). I got child benefit from 1995. I stopped work in 2006 to move abroad with dh (Armed Forces, so still entitled to child benefit). My NI payments covered my pension to that date. From 2006 to 2010 I get 4 years towards my pension, without having worked from mid 2006, as the HRP counts.

From April 2010 the rules change. As my lad is over 12, I won't get HRP any more and have to pay voluntary NI contributions to make up my pension entitlement. I live abroad, so any money I earn here and pay the NI equivalent on, doesn't get credited to the UK, but to Belgium, which is useless for my pension.

The following may help:
From 6 April 2010, parents and carers will be able to build up qualifying years through new weekly credits for the basic State Pension and additional State Pension. If you are a parent or carer, you will get a credit for each week in which you:

• are getting Child Benefit for children aged under 12
• are an approved foster carer
• are caring for at least 20 hours a week for people who are getting Attendance Allowance, the middle-rate or highest-rate care component of Disability Living Allowance, or Constant Attendance Allowance, or the need for care has been certified

Some of the detail around these changes is subject to further parliamentary approval.

There will be no limit to the credits awarded to parents and carers after April 2010, as long as you meet the qualifying rules.

If you reach State Pension age on or after 6 April 2010, complete tax years of Home Responsibilities Protection you have already built up before 2010 will be converted into qualifying years up to a maximum of 22 years.These qualifying years will also count towards bereavement benefits.

At present, I have 25/30 years required for a full state pension. I need to work out if paying £3k is worth it for the return I'll get on a full pension.