Can some brilliant MNer please explain to me how the fracking vote brought Liz Truss down?

[PopcornChewingGum]

Another one here watching the shambles that is our politics in horror and fear. The bit I don't understand is the fracking vote: how/why did it become a vote of no confidence in the government? Can anyone please explain very, very simply?

Sometimes MPs don't vote with their party and that's fine. Or they might abstain. Sometimes the party will allow a 'free vote' on an issue if MPs particularly want to vote with their conscience.

It doesn't feel democratic, no, but without political parties then governments wouldn't be able to be formed. If party discipline on voting couldn't be maintained, then governments couldn't be confident that their business would get voted through parliament and the system couldn't work smoothly (remember when Theresa May had such a small minority she couldn't get anything through parliament and government business basically stopped?).

It gets less democratic when you hear how whips maintain power over MPs to get them to vote the right way (helping them out of dodgy situations, maintaining dossiers of compromising information, promising promotions, and supposedly under Johnson, threats to withhold public money for their constituency).

The parties don't enforce a whip on every vote, just some. On some issues MPs are free to vote their conscience and/or local issues. But issues which the party leadership view as core to the party platform, it's not unreasonable to say that if you want to be a Conservative MP and benefit from the funding and infrastructure of the national party base then you vote the Conservative line. Or same same with Labour.

@noblegiraffe That post might have prompted me to watch "House of Cards" (the original not the US version) again. Like "The Thick of It" and "Yes Minister," events have outstripped some of the more unbelievable bits.

Thank you for the wonderful explanation! I finally understand it

The other thing to remember is that fracking is unpopular with most Tory MPs. Mostly because it is deeply unpopular with the electorate and it is an issue that people will change their vote over. So by deciding it was a vote of confidence, the Tory party forced their MPs to either abstain or vote with the labour motion and lose the whip or to vote with the party but virtually guarantee that they won’t get re-elected at the next election.

There was no need to make it a three line whip. Arguably it would have been a lot less damaging to uturn on whatever it was that Rees-Mogg was suggesting when he put fracking back on the table or to just allow a free vote. Labour knew exactly what they were doing when they put this forward. They were banking on the Tories pressing the self destruct button and making it a confidence vote.

"Whips also come in three flavours: one-line whips, two-line whips, and three-line whips. A one-line whip means that you don’t have to turn up to vote if you don’t feel like it, but if you do, you must vote with the whip. A two-line whip means that you don’t have to turn up provided you have a good excuse. A three-line whip means turn up or else."

This is from the New Statesman, which I found helpful.

Thank you again to everyone that has taken the time to explain, I understand it now!

Some of the methods mentioned that Whips use to keep members in line are very dodgy. What are people doing to end up being blackmailed (plus isn’t that illegal)? 🤔

She made a hugely contentious issue (lots of Tory MPs are in rural constituencies with potential fracking sites) a vote of confidence. A lot of MPs, not just those whose constituencies are ripe for fracking, saw the very poor optics of voting to allow fracking and did not want to support it and were rightly angry at being told it was a vote of confidence in Liz Truss.

Add in to that the clusterfuck confusion over whether it was, or wasn't a vote of no confidence and here we are.

she engaged better with Europe better than her predecessor

She what?

This explanation made me laugh!

twitter.com/garius/status/1582807101105410048?s=46&t=_L8vYaHhoTbG-VRUyDzVJQ

I think Dublin was getting friendlier vibes from Truss than from her predecessors. It was being seen as an attempt at rapprochement.

I can't claim any inside knowledge, but in the past Whips have, I believe, put pressure on MPs by revealing that they know about affairs, they know someone is gay but in the closet, and so on. There have also been allegations that they've helped cover things up in the knowledge that at some point the MP they've helped will owe them a favour/can be pressured into doing something. It is all a bit grim.

@bare that is brilliant. Astounding and depressing, but brilliant

Not to mention the clusterfuck of ‘I did vote but my card didn’t swipe.’

And thank you again to the explainers

There have also been allegations that they've helped cover things up in the knowledge that at some point the MP they've helped will owe them a favour/can be pressured into doing something.

Yep, if you think of Malcolm Tucker in The Thick of It threatening newspaper journalists with oblivion (end of access) if they print a particular story about an MP. That MP would owe you.

My MP is a whip. It means they are useless at being a constituency MP because they aren't allowed to influence the debate if it means going against the party line. I know this because she tells me each time I write to her about an issue I am currently concerned about and ask her to put a point forward in parliament.

Re the Labour relevance, there are days in Parliament (about 20 a session) when opposition parties get to propose debates. Tory MPs would normally be whipped to vote against any opposition day motion (it's the Government that should have control of the order paper and proposing legislation etc), but with Labour's fracking motion, that meant Tory MPs had to vote against what was in their own manifesto - with a fracking ban - so seemingly in support of J R-Mogg who just lifted it. Mischievous but effective (Tory meltdown).

supposedly under Johnson, threats to withhold public money for their constituency

How is that even supposed to work in the UK?

It's like someone read about US politics and thought, "Oh that's a good wheeze, I'll do that here."

But in the US Presidential system, the President is voted for completely separately from the states' representatives. A voter can vote for a Democrat president and a Republican congressman.

But in the UK the Prime Minister comes from the party which has the most MPs. So damaging one of your MPs' chances of holding their seat = damaging your own chance of becoming Prime Minister again.

Surely it's bonkers to threaten an MP with punishing their constituency?!

Don't forget Johnson kicked people out of the party for not voting with him on a no deal Brexit. Including Winston Churchill's grandson and Ken Clarke.

With a majority of 80 you can afford to lose a few.

Thanks bare. I feel properly schooled now.

The issues with Chris Pincher being Deputy whip, and having access to MP's misdemeanours when Johnson knew of previous allegations of sexual assault against him was the reason so many MP's resigned & he had to go!

I think Dublin was getting friendlier vibes from Truss than from her predecessors.

Can't say I agree with this

For some time government ministers refused to be questioned by the bbc. Newsnight could not get anyone. They avoided Question Time. They banned journalists from briefing meetings. Truss answered 4 questions at a press conference before she resigned. They ignore journalists snd spout what they want when they want. Johnson even tried to prorogue Parliament to avoid scrutiny.

If you live anywhere near HS2 I can assure you everyone feels they have no say at all! What planning permission? No bribes. Cannot even get on the thing. Years of construction and then noise and serious disruption of nature snd rare animals. It’s horrendous. Fracking is minor in comparison to hs2. The whitest of white elephants known to man.

I meant to add that the fracking vote showed up the chaos of Liz Truss. They changed their minds about the vote and it was widely reported the Chief Whip and her Deputy had resigned. Liz Truss had a meeting with them and they took back their resignations. This mess was the last act of self destruction as Liz Truss was indecisive and confused in her thinking. There was a lot of pushing and shoving regarding voting and decent Tories were very upset.