If we had a General Election next week who would you vote for and why?

[IdaBWells]

I cannot personally vote as I have lived overseas for too long. Who would you vote for and why?

[BishopBrennansArse]

I used to have that kind of income, I was on the then £42k+ tax rate.
Yeah nobody likes paying tax but I accepted that to have free at the point of use healthcare, emergency services, bin colllections etc it was a necessary evil.
I wasn't out for myself, basically.

So I've not always been in the situation when I'm dependent on state help, but everyone uses the services that state money (ie tax take) provides even if you have private healthcare, there's no private A&E or intensive care for example.

Everyone pays in, even us on benefits via VAT. That's as it should be.

Greed is so ugly.

[ArabellaDoreenFig]

@BishopBrennansArse
I don’t understand your point about tax ? I cant tell see anyone on the thread saying they don’t want to pay tax? In fact most of us are saying we would happily pay more.

But the policies you identify do sound like they would be positive moves. I’m unsure about free tuition fees though tbh, it advantages the middle classes further? Whilst those in financial need won’t be any better off ?

@Graphista

If our situations were reversed- and you had a comfortable income and a house would you happily trade all of your money/assets in and be happy living within much smaller means?

[ArabellaDoreenFig]

@Graphista

Apologies that was a very personal question and I feel I was out of line.

Looking at the wider picture of ‘socialism’ - I don’t think it benefits society, I think it drags everyone down to the poverty line.

Are there any examples of truly socialist societies which work?

[BishopBrennansArse]

Understandable, Arabella, but in a lot of these cases means testing makes the exercise more expensive. So it's cheaper to help everyone rather than work out who is entitled to that help. Same with FSM. Those who are paying the increased taxes could also then see some benefit to doing so.

Pretty much the entire premise of capitalism is low tax and market forces, with trickle down economics. It's not working - yet you say this is what we need as a country.

I am fairly socialist I would admit but even I see how going full socialist would lead high earners to leave in droves as they did in the 70s. I certainly see communist as way too far.

I want to see fairness. Capitalism as it's standing with the trickle down system is running the country into the ground. People are poorer and relying on charity to feed their families, this coupled with public service cuts for police and prevention agencies are a factor in increased crime.

I want all children to have the opportunity to have a good education and succeed in whatever they choose to do, not just the Etonians or those who have family privilege to get them places. I want working families to be able to support themselves financially and have spare money so they're living rather than existing. I want food banks to be extinct. I want those who need medical care to get it, those who are disabled to get the support they need be it financial or equipment (I'll admit a vested interest in the disability thing as I'm disabled).

I also think a number of wrongs have been inflicted on this country while everyone is obsessing about Brexit.

[BishopBrennansArse]

Oh and I know I'm not Graphista but what you're saying isn't what I want personally either. I want people to contribute a fair proportion of their income. That doesn't mean selling their houses and handing their salary over in its entirety.

[ArabellaDoreenFig]

@BishopBrennansArse

I never thought about the means testing and related admin- good point!

What you are saying about a fairer society is right - and I definitely agree that we should all contribute a fair proportion of our income, but I can’t agree with Graphista that the government should seize assets because I wouldn’t want my house going to the state, I want it to go to my children and I can’t say that others should give up what I won’t IYS

[Kazzyhoward]

In fact most of us are saying we would happily pay more.

Easy to say. But in reality, most people go to all kinds of extreme to avoid paying more, hence paying into pensions to keep below £50k and keep child benefit, GPs cutting down their hours to avoid the marginal 62% tax rate, etc etc.

[birdsdestiny]

I have never seen any costings to show means testing for tuition fees would cost more than tuition fees for all. I would have considerable concern about those on lower wages contributing to something which will benefit those who are well off.

[TheBigBallOfOil]

This is quite interesting. Five or ten years ago on a thread like this you would have got one or two at most saying they'd vote Tory before fleeing the brickbats of other posters.
Either the profile of MNers has changed or Corbyn has really, really fucked it up.

[OddBoots]

My MP left Labour to be a TIG, I voted for him last time and would vote for him again if he stood. Otherwise Lib Dem.

[Graphista]

"If our situations were reversed- and you had a comfortable income and a house would you happily trade all of your money/assets in and be happy living within much smaller means?"

Honestly. I have never been as well off as you are, but I have been been better off than I am now and while of course I did spend some of that on myself/dd, more dd after she was born, I also have never been someone that is particularly into wanting certain material things. That's not because I think there's anything wrong with that per se it's just not who I am, I've always been someone who's happy as long as I have enough to live on and do fairly cheap hobbies/interests - again not because there's anything wrong with other hobbies interests it's just mine tend to be free/cheap. I also have always donated to my preferred charities whenever I've been better off and been a volunteer in a variety of roles when my health was better, I still do what I can to support the causes I care about albeit as I'm housebound that's limited to some minor admin for a local charity, signing petitions etc.

My dd is 18 now and will be leaving home in the next few years. I am giving serious consideration (in part for health reasons) to not even living in a one bed flat but moving to a studio or houseshare, though a houseshare could be problematic health wise, I don't need a whole flat to myself! Indeed there are some members of society I think need to be more open minded to living in different ways as older adults rather than under occupying larger properties (though I don't agree with forcing it via things like bedroom tax, and I think availability of smaller properties is part of the problem)

"Are there any examples of truly socialist societies which work?" It's never been truly tried anywhere to my knowledge (disclaimer I am not an economist or anthropologist) Communist countries aren't socialist, they're the extreme end of left wing politics but also somewhat of a bastardisation of socialism I feel.

I don't think taking what relatively ordinary people already have to give to those worse off is particularly workable and that's far closer to communism.

But I do think we need to even things out much more.

I don't think it's right that there's eg the CEO of Tesco in a huge house, with expensive goods like multiple cars etc and getting a salary of millions when the people on the ground doing the work which brings IN their profits are not even paid enough to live on!

It needs evened out throughout our society.

I don't think it's wrong to cut his/her salary by a couple million and reduce shareholders profits in order to pay the people doing the bulk of the work a decent living wage.

Which is good for our whole society in a number of ways as has already been pointed out. Everyone benefits from a healthier, happier, better educated, less crime prone society.

[ArabellaDoreenFig]

Thanks for replying to me in good faith @Graphista and @BishopBrennansArse, you’ve both raised some really good points, and it’s really nice to have a proper discussion about it.

My defence of capitalism is mainly that in our society we need to generate money both on a personal level (to pay for housing, fuel, food, leisure etc) and at a government level, (NHS, infrastructure, welfare etc) so in order for the government to collect money we need to be earning it, and the government should only take a fair and proportional slice.

I think it’s fair to say we all agree that a more equal society would be better, and we can agree on some aspects of how we think this can be achieved, and on some we disagree.
I think there is lot of conflation between socialism and communism and conflation between socialism and the left wing (ie Labour) I do think that it would help Labour to get back into the hearts of working class communities and engage with people.

[BishopBrennansArse]

I do agree with that to a degree, Arabella, which is why I lean more towards the Keynesian model.

[BishopBrennansArse]

Personally I think Sweden is quite a good model.

[BishopBrennansArse]

Talking about voter engagement I genuinely believe if adequate security could be implemented then voting via an app might actually be the way to go about mobilising those who normally don't vote.

I am genuinely concerned that the rise of the far right has been because those who are so far right (and I'm not talking moderate Conservatives, I know they exist, I don't like the Tory party but I know there are moderates) will say whatever they think they need to to get the popular vote. I really do.

Our prime minister (I'm not putting him in the far right but he does associate with that - Bannon, Trump, Farage et al) will quite literally do whatever he thinks he has to to get to power. And he has.

Too many people don't actually do their research into policy any more. They just go with sound bites and personality and whichever party paid more on the social media bill.

It genuinely frightens me that we are sleepwalking into a far right situation. Racist attacks and attacks on disabled people have risen since the Brexit result. Far right attitudes are not only considered acceptable by some but actively celebrated and the media doesn't seem to be doing anything.

[Mintandcucumber]

I’d vote green. Been a member of Labour since I could join but I can’t in good faith vote for a party that will support brexit - or at the very least not condemn it. Jeremy Corbyn has hedged his bets for too long

[goodwinter]

I'm a socialist, vegetarian, working class woman

@Graphista me too! :) I feel like a minority voice in MN with those attributes sometimes, so that's cool. Great posts throughout the thread.

[BishopBrennansArse]

I'm a socialist some would say underclass (as on disability benefits) but consider myself working class woman.

No champagne socialism here.

[JustAnotherPoster00]

Labour is riddled with anti Semitism.

0.06% of the membership, still too much in my opinion but 0.06%, less than the population at large.

Labour for me, I voted for Kinnock the first time I voted, held my nose to vote for Blair because of how neo-liberal policies were, but they still did some good and I will happily hold my head up high hoping we can get a Labour MP in my constituency

[BishopBrennansArse]

That's 0.06 of nearly half a million too, isn't it?

[JustAnotherPoster00]

Yeah like I said still way too much but not as bad as the media would have you believe

[BestIsWest]

I’d vote for my MP (Labour) as she’s fantastic. However if it wasn’t for her I’d probably vote Plaid Cymru. I may yet.

[BishopBrennansArse]

Oh I know, JustAnother, none is acceptable.

[superfudge]

Lib dem. They are unlikely to get in in my very blue constituency but more likely than Labour.

I want another referendum. I don't want Brexit. I tend to agree with their policies in the main.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

Late 40s have always voted labour but I think Corbyn is horrendous. Such a weak leader IMO really couldn't imagine him as PM. I am in the political abyss at the moment