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Politics

Explanation needed about exit of EU

40 replies

HappydaysArehere · 06/02/2016 10:07

Please can anyone clarify two points? Firstly, how much will it cost us? That is on ongoing expenditure such as Switzerland and Norway have to pay. Secondly, how long will it take to extract us from all the treaties and legal detritus and again wil this be just money for EU lawyers etc? With these questions unanswered I am really on the fence.

OP posts:
Slimmingcrackers · 20/02/2016 16:53

Carol yes we have a higher standard of animal welfare in the UK than in some other Member States but surely the point is that we want to use our position in the EU to improve animal welfare across 28 Member States? This is a good example of where we need to do more in the EU not less.

Will check about Norway, could be wrong, but fairly sure that it is more than 21%. Do you have a source for this figure pls?

caroldecker · 20/02/2016 19:26

Slimming Norway

We could try and improve standards in the EU, or we could make our own and ensure all meat eaten in the UK had higher standards. At the moment, all we do is put UK farmers out of business and continue to treat animals badly.

Less than half of UK eaten pork meets UK welfare standards, despite 90% of UK consumers wanting them to.

Slimmingcrackers · 21/02/2016 10:04

CarolDecker re: the animal welfare issues

Sadly the core problem is in your last comment - I'm sure 90% of consumers do want better animal welfare when asked about this in a questionnaire. However, the evidence is that they not willing to pay the extra to secure this when they reach the cash till!

Suppose we did impose national rules on pig production - increasing the price of pork by eg 50% - do you think that consumers would switch to chicken or other meats or protein which remains cheaper?

The better route by far would be to use the EU to secure better welfare across the EU - the EU Commission has been working on this for years but the Member States have essentially squashed their proposals.

I would far prefer to see the commercial pressure of consumers across Europe push for change - but to do this we need to be not only in the EU but leading the charge for these changes!

lljkk · 21/02/2016 10:44

So Switzerland (popn=8million) pays about £500million to have a relationshp with EU.
Norway (popn = 5 mln) paid 300 million euros (~ £232 mln) in 2013 for its relationship with EU.

So UK with popn = 64 million, should pay £3.6-£4 billion for similar relationships with UK... right?

I wonder what Morroco, Lebanon or Egypt pay, they have relationships with EU more like what most Referndum-Out people want to have.

Nona79 · 21/02/2016 10:47

Anybody know how the people of Northern Ireland will be affected? Some hold Irish citizenship under the good Friday agreement, will they still be considered members of the EU or will this have a massive knock on affect to the peace agreements in Northern Ireland with nationalists no longer able to claim Irish citizenship?

VertigoNun · 21/02/2016 13:07

I guess dual nationality and an Anglo-Irish agreement to keep the border open.

Nona79 · 21/02/2016 13:24

Thanks vertigo, does that mean that those with an Irish passport/dual citizenship would still have the benefits of EU membership even if the Brexit happens?

VertigoNun · 21/02/2016 13:55

I was born in England and have an Irish parent, so I have dual nationality. I would on my Irish passport, be free to remain an EU citizen. I have no desire to live or work abroad etc, personally.

HappydaysArehere · 22/02/2016 10:26

Thank you everyone. Fantastic posts which I am reading and rereading.

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thebiscuitindustry · 28/02/2016 20:54

I agree with what Giles Fraser said on Question Time the other day, as he made a left-wing case for Brexit.

He said "Democracy is not for sale".

Andyhall · 10/03/2016 21:55

Hi everyone,
I am a first time poster so go easy on me please Smile
I will be voting for brexit for the following reasons

  1. We are the worlds fifth strongest economy and I believe smaller businesses would be able to compete more with the larger businesses without the rules and burocracy demanded by the EU. This could result in cheaper prices for goods and services and also help with exports.
  2. I believe that the NHS and other public services will be at risk of privatisation because of TTIP which would happen very soon after the referendum. The NHS is in great financial difficulties now and is being primed for privatisation. Only Brexit will stop that.
3 The end game will be a giant superstate where we do not have real representation and democracy as we know it.
  1. Our influence in Europe is better served outside the EU.
  2. We do not have the infrastructure to cope with the numbers of migrants that choose the UK as there choice of destination and whilst we remain we have the question of Turkey being admitted in addition to the refugee question which the UK will be encouraged to address. Roads,schools, health services jobs and wages and cultural disharmony could fracture British society as we know it leading to a a significant lowering of living standards and wages to ordinary working Brits.
  3. We will save 20 billion quid a year in EU contributions which could go towards better roads,schools and health services to name but 3 things.
Last but not least,we are better able to ensure the security if this country from fifth columnists and terror attacks at a time when the EU is falling apart at the seams as evidenced by what's happening in Germany,Sweden,Austria and France.plus the schengen agreement being ignored by some member states. Consider too the struggling economies of southern European countries such as Greece wanting bail outs and the high unemployment rates in Spain,Italy, Portugal and others and it is clearly project doom and the sooner we get out the better. As the old saying goes " you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"
Spinflight · 06/06/2016 21:57

Article 50 gives two years to extract. It is actually both for renegotiation and to prepare for leaving.

Cameron has, rather foolishly, refused a further referendum to accept or reject a renegotiation in light of an article 50 so two years it is then out.

Norway pays a couple of billion per year and Switzerland far less as contributions for access to the single market. However they both enact most ( about 80%) of laws and directives and impose them upon all of their companies. Saying that their bulk exports to the rest of the world are very limited so it makes some sense for them.

There is no explicit need for this, only the 6-8% of businesses which actually trade with the EU should technically have to accept all the European standards in this country should we leave. Hence companies which trade with India would have to abide by the Indian's standards, not the EU ones.

I can see some problems here, but advantageous ones in the main.

As for how much would we have to pay, that will be part of the two years of negotiation. Cameron hasn't exactly given himself a strong hand to work with here with his insistence that the four horsemen of the apocalypse will strike hence it might be on the high side.

Certainly a lot less than we currently pay and technically there is no particular reason why we should pay anything barring the EU's intransigence and the incompetence of our politicians.

They export £30-40 billions worth more than we export to them so tarifs would actually be to our advantage on paper. More so when they are no longer allowed to plunder our fishing free of charge. Most of the EU fishing fleets are from nations that are in some distress already, particularly the Spanish so the loss of this would be a read headache and drain on the EU.

Interestingly a lot of the problems off the horn of Africa are actually due to EU fishing fleets being given rights to plunder there, which resulted in no fish for the locals who resorted to piracy. Hence it is fairly clear that the appetite for fish is strong and one that we would provide, at prices set by ourselves.

Whilst the remain side with all of their tame economists claim figures such as £9 billion gain the EU itself is figuring on a £30 odd billion loss to it's accounts. That isn't necessarily a net gain on our side, more likely somewhere in the middle however few seem to realise that VAT is an EU tax with a proportion going straight to it's coffers. It was a requirement for membership in the early 70s and alien to us before that.

VAT on fuels in particular is a growth destroyer and I'd expect it's removal alone would provide sufficient impetus to the economy to negate any fees or danegeld demanded.

The EU also benefits from the quality and efficiency of our agriculture. One rarely mentioned side effect of Brexit is the likely monopolization of the common agricultural policy farmers ( particularly the French ones) who frankly could bankrupt and ruin a superpower given their demands.

Who nowadays could conceive of a more eco friendly and efficient system than our dairies of old. Recycled glass bottles, electric vehicles and all local and freshly delivered to your door. Twas the EU farmers wot killed them, oh and our own politicians embarrassed by the milk lake, butter mountain etc.

My thought, though I am no expert, is that given a year they'd both be begging and paying us to remain in the free trade zone though I have no faith in our politicians to deliver such a deal in our interests.

So in summary our position would be strong, very strong, but our politicians weak.

Twas ever thus.

lljkk · 06/06/2016 22:04

I reckon there will be an opportunity to negotiate an extension to our leaving date. Took 9 yrs for Switzerland to negotiate their trade deals with UK (I heard).

lljkk · 08/06/2016 12:04

Someone on Radio5 today said another valid way to leave EU is to simply repeal out of our laws the legislation that put UK into EU. I'm not sure if that's better, but it might give us more time to keep current trade deals while negotiating new ones.

cdtaylornats · 13/06/2016 22:28

www.barcouncil.org.uk/media/472103/exec_summary_bar_council_eu_referendum_final.pdf

Neutral explanation from the bar council

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