Why is the coalition making a public spectacle of picking on the poor?

[ttosca]

We're living in truly Orwellian times when the British state removes all avenues for the individual to hold it to account

We all know that the government's plan to fix "broken Britain" is predicated on blaming our national scapegoats: the undeserving poor. Sitting at ease behind closed curtains, fecklessly "breeding" life that they haven't the means to feed, we are told, the poor are the real scourges of a society in which the richest 10% own 40% of our country's wealth. They do not deserve the same rights that we might expect, were we ever to find ourselves in their position, because, truth be told, we are better people than those awful scroungers. And just when you thought such treatment of our poorest citizens couldn't get any worse, the coalition is proving itself willing to plumb new depths.

Leaked internal documents from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) have shown that it is tabling a proposal to charge people who challenge a decision to strip them of their benefits. There is no mention of refunds for those who manage to win their appeals. That's right, some of the poorest in our society could be forced to put up and shut up, even when a government department is at fault.

In the last year, nearly a million people had their benefits stopped and of those who appealed against the decision at independent tribunals, 58% won their case. It leaves me wondering about the efficacy of such a manoeuvre. This is a department that gets its decisions more often wrong than right. Why does it have the mettle to even attempt such a policy? I guess you have to admire the pure chutzpah of this public-school cabal.

Aphorisms often appear too trite to tell us anything meaningful, yet this is not the case with the assertion attributed to Mahatma Gandhi that "the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members". The Tories have transformed what should be our national shame into a public spectacle in which we should all revel in kicking those on the rung below us; it's easier that way to forget about what is happening above you.

Rather than question why parts of our stake in the bailed-out Lloyds Banking Group could be sold at a £230m loss, we are supposed to champion draconian measures such as cuts to disability living allowance. The DWP's own figures show that only 0.5% of those claiming incapacity benefit do so fraudulently, yet the company it placed in charge of carrying out its work capability assessments, Atos Healthcare, judged a third of claimants to be fit to work. These are the sorts of people who stand to lose if the government charges them for appealing against a process that is skewed against them.

The policy seems like a kite-flying exercise to gauge just how far we are willing to go when it comes to making the most vulnerable pay for the City's excesses. If, as I hope and pray, the measure is deemed too extreme and is shelved, Iain Duncan Smith's department will still come out smelling of roses. To the Tory heartland it continues its incessant drumbeat of being "tough" in "lean" times. To the rest of us, it hopes to appear measured and able to accept criticism.

We should distrust any government that is willing to go where this policy would take it. To call it Orwellian would be a sober assessment of facts rather than an emotive exaggeration. When the state removes all avenues for the individual to hold it to account in respect of how it treats them, we are living in hard times indeed.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/21/coalition-spectacle-picking-on-the-poor

Claig…..so you stand for taking the poor out of tax, which the coalition has done up to £10,000 gradually to this year AND with a several hundred thousand on waiting list for social housing for several years, Ukip agree with Labour it is better to have those with spare council bedrooms keep them, than have families with severe overcrowding, be allowed to move into those spare rooms, no doubt in the spirit of ‘fairness’.

This is a summary of ‘Blue’ Ukip’s 2010 general election manifesto you can no longer find on your website, when you were after Conservative votes - not too much for the poor here under ‘welfare’ and ‘families’, so what do you need to do to appeal to ‘Red’ Ukip and the ‘working mans’ vote – you need to hide/disown it
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8617187.stm

So while the Conservatives and Labour Party ‘trimmed’ their past manifestos, Ukip disowned the whole lot and took it off their website so that could opportunistically oppose everything the other 3 said. Only the Lib Dems came out of this well.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-15/u-k-parties-prepare-for-2015-by-erasing-web-histories.html

“UKIP spokesman Michael Heaver confirmed that the party’s 2010 election manifesto had been removed While the party now opposes the planned high-speed north-south rail line, the 2010 document advocated building three new routes. “We’re in the process of updating everything,” Heaver said by telephone. “We’re going through a policy review.”

news.sky.com/story/1200525/nigel-farage-disowns-ukip-manifesto-as-drivel
"UKIP leader Nigel Farage has disowned the party's entire general election manifesto - which he helped launch - branding it "drivel”

So as it is a 2015 afterthought for electoral gain, please, no lectures from Ukip on standing up for the poor, or having the national front to point failing established parties, when you had no answers yourselves.

The old manifesto was written by someone who is a current Conservative MEP, so of course it was 'drivel'.

But this person is no longer a Ukipper, he is now a Tory.

"An East of England MEP who wrote UKIP’s manifesto for the last general election has been branded an “ idiot ” by party leader Nigel Farage.

David Campbell Bannerman, who has since defected to the Tories, was behind the 2010 document Mr Farage condemned by as “drivel”.

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/East-of-England-MEP-David-Campbell-Bannerman-branded-idiot-by-UKIP-leader-Nigel-Farage-for-writing-drivel-election-manifesto-20140125085509.htm

I am surprised Farage used such temperate language frankly.
I think that is an indication of statesmanship.

Claig…..I’ve always said that Ukip is just Tory party on overly strong steroids, washed done with Real Ale, but surely it doesn’t matter if the 2010 Ukip manifesto was written by the Tooth Fairies, it was put together by the (then) Ukip tooth fairies and Farage would have signed off on it AS Ukip’s policies.

If a party leader of the European -one-trick-pony-party is so Westminster power mad that he neither has input, nor cares on what policies HE stands for a general election on, how can he be trusted to represent ANY voters interests?

“Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s The World Tonight, Mr Campbell Bannerman hit back by branding Mr Farage a “joker”.

Mr Campbell Bannerman said: “It was a very serious paper but Nigel could not be bothered to read it, anything to do with policy and I’m afraid it’s not good enough for someone who’s trying to be or claims to be a serious political leader.

“You know you’re dealing really with someone who isn’t bothered, isn’t serious, a bit of a joker, and it’s not good enough

“It’s not a political party, it’s a pressure group. Because Nigel’s on the ropes, he’s lashing out in all directions."

“Statesman” or women have a meticulous attention to detail, Farage is like a drunkard on a pub crawl ordering a different tipple in every pub - so who can trust a word he slurs?

Lets see what he comes up with next, for the 'Red' Ukip vote.

'I’ve always said that Ukip is just Tory party on overly strong steroids, washed done with Real Ale'

Are you saying that UKIP are the real Tories?

'Lets see what he comes up with next, for the 'Red' Ukip vote.'

Well it is bound to be better than what some desperate Tories have come up with.

"Tory MP Robert Halfon today called for a transformation of the Tories ‘so never again will it be allowed to be called the party for the rich’.

Writing in The Sun, Mr Halfon set out a blueprint reconnecting with voters: ‘First, rename it the Workers' Party , the party that speaks for the aspiration of hard-working people and has the policies that count to help them.

‘Second, replace the party's tree emblem with a symbol of a ladder — representing the moral mission that has always provided the foundation of Conservative values.

‘Third, let's give working people a real reason to join the new Workers' Party — with a joining fee of just £1 it could be more of a trade union than a political party.’

Mr Halfon added: None of this is rocket science but there is a huge opportunity here.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2566814/Change-Tory-party-Workers-Party-Cameron-urged-smash-Conservatives-image-touch-Old-Etonians.html

10 out of 10 for trying, but that MP is just as out of touch as the Etonians.

The answer is to get rid of most of their MPs, who care more about rooftop wind turbines, foreign aid for the Ethiopian Spice Girls and the fate of the 'Depressed River Mussel' than they do about the British people.

Don't change the party's name, change the party's MPs. If the Party doesn't do it, then the people will at the ballot box.

Claig...if you want to compare old party farts & fruitcake representatives words and ideas, I'm happy to do that with you, all day.

But as to party policies, you are still obsessing about a few micro issues, when people focus on the main policies e.g. 1.3 million new jobs since 2010, and 'fixing the mess'....as mentioned in issue detail at PMQT, remember?

Surely you realise the bigger issues are far more important at election times, and Ukip will need to show that THEY have big issue policies and enough talent within to form a decent pub crawl, never mind run the country.

But I care about the little things because I believe that

from little acorns great trees grow

as it is below so shall it be above

They are traditional values, yes, but that is why I used to be a Tory back in the good days, before the Tory Party abandoned its voters and its ways.

If a party cares more about spin and baloney than the truth, if it cares more about the 'Depressed River Mussel' than people's homes and businesses, then it has lost its roots that grounded it to the people. When a bunch of Etonians allegedly call their grass roots members, good Conservative people, "swivel-eyed loons", then the lunatics have taken over the asylum and it is time to vote for a new party of common sense - UKIP.

That is what has happened and that is what will continue to happen until the Tory Party will be left with a rump of Etonians with rooftop wind turbines on their cars abusing good Conservative people who have moved on to pastures new. They say the grass is not always greener, but in this case, they couldn't be more wrong and that's why millions are moving on.

I want a party that cares about little things and little people, because then they will also care about big things and not just about how many bath plugs they can claim for.

It's over and it's not a moment too soon.

If everybody in the country is too frightened to vote for change just because Miliband may win the election, then change will never come.

Change takes courage and the people showed extraordinary courage by voting for UKIP in local elections, and the people have the courage to continue voting for them because they want change.

When a party does not have the courage to set Pickles loose in case he spills out the truth, then why should the people back them? When the only real Tory voice left in the country is to be found on the pages of the Daily Mail, then why should Conservative voters continue to vote for Tories?

Rome wasn't built in a day, and the people won't get what they want in a day, but unless we vote for change, we will never see that day and change starts with the Euro elections in May.

''But as to party policies, you are still obsessing about a few micro issues, when people focus on the main policies e.g. 1.3 million new jobs since 2010, and 'fixing the mess'

This is where you are going wrong. You don't really understand the people and nor do the Bullingdon Club. It is not a long list of facts and figures that makes people vote, and Farage was right that it is not 400 odd pages of drivel that makes people vote. Even Farage himself didn't wade through the drivel.

We know that Osborne has been successful and done a good job, and we know that lots of Tories did a good job, such as Pickles in keeping our council taxes down etc. but that is not enough.

Little things count because one by one they add up. All of the mistakes add up and sometimes they can overshadow the successes.

Miliband understands the people more than the Bullingdon Club does. That is why his whole aim is to try and convince us that he is "on our side". We want people who are "on our side", who share our beliefs and values and goals. People won't vote Labour because Ed Balls presents a stunning set of facts and figures, they will vote Labour if they believe that Labour is "on their side". That is why Miliband has gone big on the cost of living etc.

He has even tried to rebrand Labour as "One Nation Labour" to prove that he is on our side. But that is a patronising mistake probably suggested to him by a teenage spinner with a wind turbine on his head.

People make up their minds about who is "on their side" by taking account of one little thing after another. If a party can't get the little things right, then people think they are going wrong and won't get the big things right. If they get too many little things wrong, then people lose sight of the big things.

People know that advisers and civil servants and think tanks give input for the big things anyway, whoever is in charge, but if a party can't steer the correct course over the little things, then they are on the wrong track and are not "on our side".

The reason that the Tory Party lost half of its own membership since Cameron took charge is because even those dedicated Tories no longer believed that Cameron was "on their side", irrespective of the economy.

This is the tragedy of this government.

They are better than Labour, and they are doing well on many of the big things, but they have lost their heart and lost their soul and lost their core voters and lost half of their members, because they got so many little things wrong that people stopped believing that they were "on our side".

Claig...again so many words, so little said, so just skimming through, this is a thread about the poor, Ukip have nothing tangible to offer via a policy at all, never mind that is 'different' - and Miliband and most of the people that surrounds him, BY DESIGN, was part of a 13-year administration brought in the policies that screwed the working man and most other beside.

The evidence is clear what Labour did to the people on immigration, jobs, welfare dependancy, pensions, education, taxes etc etc etc, and had 13-years to do it, only blind hatred for the Conservatives means people can't see WHO screwed them or ask the questions/hold them accountable to why they did it

_Cameron if confirming no Conservative coalitions in 2015, will give the people a straight choice, Labour or Conservative, no problem, they get which of the parties that can form a government THEY want.

The majority of Ukip 'class warriors' who follow a no policy ex City oil speculator, funny old world won't vote Conservative as 'elitist', but those who want the people to have a say in the EU will, or under Labour will never get a vote. Simples.

OP asks us to consider the shabby way poor people are being treated and the first reply from you, Isitmebut, spells out bad decisions made by Labour.

I happen to share some of your opinion of Labour as it happens, but what has that really got to do with what the Tories are doing now?

By their own figures they have targeted people who on appeal have been shown to be blameless and in need.

If they really intend to charge people who challenge a decision to strip them of their benefits when they know the majority of those people were in fact entitled then surely you'd agree that was immoral in itself?

'the first reply from you, Isitmebut, spells out bad decisions made by Labour'

BackOnlyBriefly is right. You are always on about Labour. As ttosca rightly says, "who cares about Labour?" We all know they are rubbish. This is about how rubbish the Coalition are i.e. the Conservatives are and why.

B.O.B....the SIZE of the welfare problem and UK debt WAS Labour's fault due to various policies, and needed tough decisions that Labour has since said they would have needed to address, but when large scale policies need to be formulated, some people will initially fall through the net - but if they are in need it will get addressed, as extra money has been provided for hardship cases.

No one WANTS to see those in need suffer, to indicate any political party wants to see that is ideological clap-trap.

As I've said before, if Welfare/benefits problems like everything else had not just had more taxpayers money chucked at it year after year for 13-years, and been reformed prior to 2010, then inheriting a well managed system would mean less problems - but politically they refused to make tough decisions of problems of their own making prior to 2010 - including any spending cuts to get through the public sector trade unions and welfare/benefits to get passed their grass roots supporters.

Claig....so this is why I am always on about Labour, as like most of their administration it was always about throwing money at problems for votes, and unforgivable political cowardice in neither addressing those problems pre 2010, or spelling out solutions post 2010 in their manifesto.

And Ukip's manifesto Farage calls "drivel" hardly mentioned to poor, never mind spelled out how they would tackle the problems, hence your little job here is to just cynically criticise the main parties for votes, WHICH IS EVEN LOWER ON THE POLITICAL COMPETENCE WILDLIFE SCALE. IMO.

No, I am giving hope that change is possible. That there is a new party, that second best is no longer acceptable.

And the change begins in the May Euro elections. It's gonna be a whitewash, it's gonna be a slam dunk, it's gonna be over.

the SIZE of the welfare problem and UK debt WAS Labour's fault due to various policies

Only if you believe that most people on benefits shouldn't be on it. We get claims that everyone is defrauding the system while this government's own figures demonstrate that this isn't true. We get soundbites about benefit culture, but again when it comes down to finding all these scroungers and layabouts very few can be found.

Of course Labour could have simply cut all benefits and the minimum wage by half. That certainly would have made it easier for the current government, but that doesn't mean it would have been right to do so.

I love tough decisions which is becoming popular lately. It seems to translate though as "well poor people will just have to be poorer".

Claig....you are right, Ukip will get totally rewarded in the European Elections (for their lack of domestic policies, false ability to leave EU promise and general political cowardice resulting from all that), thanks to roving internet doctors like you peddling false snake-oil hope,without substance - your ancestors looking down, will be very proud of you.

'but again when it comes down to finding all these scroungers and layabouts very few can be found.'

Have they looked in Parliament?

oh and did I miss the bit Isitmebut where you gave us your opinion of the morals of charging people who have been cheated to have it checked and corrected?

Have they looked in Parliament?

Taxpayer Foots £7m Bill For Subsidising Commons Bars And Restuarants

Very good point

And then we have this - the bedroom tax.
UKIP will scrap it and Labour say they will end it too.

"I was one of the 660,000 people hit by the tax. Mum was made redundant from her administration job and had exhausted her savings. With no spare funds to cover the 25% reduction in our housing benefit – equal to £137 a month – we had to move to a smaller two-bedroom property."

...

"The bedroom tax isn't merely a tax, it's an extended, slowly encroaching eviction notice, and those who choose to stay in their homes risk being made homeless.

When the move came, the housing association gave us two weeks – two weeks to uproot our lives from the community that had been home for 17 years. As I watched the flooring being pulled up, I felt a sense of injustice. Of course, rehousing families living in overcrowded conditions is important, but a rushed exodus of those already teetering on the edge of society is draconian.

Neighbours wept, friends inevitably lost contact."

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/11/bedroom-tax-not-save-money

In all the years that we have had council housing, we have never had anything like the bedroom tax. It will end when a new government comes in, but it will be too late for the people it uprooted.

I notice that for a lot of tenants the bedroom tax turned out to be illegal. The coalition didn't bother with checking beforehand because it didn't matter to them. It's not as though the victims were real people after all.