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FRACKING

134 replies

bonnyclark · 06/09/2013 19:57

My husband and I are very much against fracking, we have been down to Balcombe a few times to support the protest. My husband is a published songwriter and has donated a power protest song, called 'We Will Never Surrender', (Published by World Domination Music Ltd), all profits going towards the fight against fracking. You can download this song at www.nelsonking.bandcamp.com/track/we-will-nver-surrender
If you go into 'Fracking at Balcomber', you will see just how serious the situation is, and how much damage is being done to the planet. If we dont stop this 'assault', our children will never forgive us.
Thankyou.

OP posts:
flipflop21 · 06/03/2014 12:09

Another well on fire in the States this week - imagine that less than a km from your home and within 100 yards of public highway.

www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25271687/oil-gas-explosion-north-greeley-results-two-minor

flipflop21 · 06/03/2014 13:03

Research in the US reveals that scientists are only just beginning to find out the impact of fracking on water quality.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/algae-in-glass-cases-could-determine-frackinge28099s-toll/

Isitmebut · 08/03/2014 00:56

Flipflop21…..your point on Russian market share is a moot point according to a Wiki source, depending on your EU residence receiving 5% or 100% from Russia, but whether they supply a total of 30,40, or 70% of a huge volume of EU gas, or whether they turn the several pipelines off or have the ability to threaten - it gives them huge political influence e.g Germany’s reluctance to lead the EU economic sanctions – and the ongoing supply/price risk to Europe (and UK competing in those same markets) of replacing all that gas.

According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]
• Estonia 100%
• Finland 100%
• Latvia 100%
• Lithuania 100%
• Slovakia 98%
• Bulgaria 92%
• Czech Republic 77.6%
• Greece 76%
• Hungary 60% • Slovenia 52%
• Austria 49%
• Poland 48.15%
• Germany 36%
• Italy 27%
• Romania 27%
• France 14%
• Belgium 5%

Your point on ‘current’ prices in a potential ongoing gas supply bun fight means very little as energy companies tend to buy via fixed price contracts and/or in the Futures Market, so apart from what we can store here, it will depend when companies HAVE to buy and/or their ability to buy at the lows, not the highs.

Lets remember when Labour came in to power around the late 19990’s WTI oil was around $20 a barrel, but several years later it hit $147 a barrel and settled in the $95 to $105 range, if memory serves – these prices are not gossip, they trade on exchanges and the records are there.

So how you can say ‘it is not true’ when based on that link on the other page mentioning exchange markets rose and then fell 25% in a short time, totally escapes me.

“The futures tumbled 25 percent last week, capping the biggest one-week drop since 1996 and the first monthly decline since September. Prices reached $6.493 on Feb. 24, the highest intraday price since Dec. 2, 2008.”

I reiterate, those are real price moves, they can both move with similar volatility and affect related markets at any time ( see blow), this is not "scaremongering", markets don’t WAIT for ‘stuff’ to happen, they have to price risk in, both in the ‘spot’ market’ and futures prices.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/ukraine-crisis-could-boost-lng-prices-if-gas-supply-threatened.html

“A disruption of natural gas supplies to Europe by an escalation of Russia’s military action in Ukraine may boost LNG demand and prices in Asia and South America, according to Societe Generale SA and Morgan Stanley.”

“Russia, which provides Europe with more than a quarter of its natural gas mainly though Ukraine, has cut supplies twice since 2006. While the current crisis hasn’t interrupted exports, liquefied natural gas prices will “move through the roof” if flows transiting Ukraine are stopped, said Thierry Bros, an analyst at Societe Generale in Paris.”

As for how much we can get from Fracking and in how many years, it matters NOT, until we start producing the stuff and every little will help. Think how much nuclear energy we might have had if we had started building nuclear plants, rather than keep putting it off and without breaking ground in the mid 2000’s, have now left it too late. We needed a balance of energy supplies, but nothing much was done about it.

In conclusion whether looking at the past political histories of country energy suppliers, energy market price/volatility histories, or even the recent prices moves, you have NO argument on the need for energy supply/security, as that determines the price we might have to pay over long periods– and Putin is likely to be around a long time, no matter what other ‘event’ happens elsewhere and disrupts global supplies and the knock on effect to us.

Whether the risks of lifting it are real/acceptable, that is another matter beyond my little briefs.

Isitmebut · 08/03/2014 01:30

Hot off todays press.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10684333/Putin-mocks-the-West-and-threatens-to-turn-off-gas-supplies.html

I reiterate, whether he does or not, markets have to price in 'risk' and buyers have to judge when they jump in and build up future supplies/inventory, as this ex USSR State (Ukraine) , and the two or three others over the past few years e.g. Georgia, could just be the start of ex KGB Putin's nostalgia of bringing countries back into the fold and flexing Russian international muscles, like the 'good old days'.

I think Thatcher said many years ago something along the lines of 'rely on Russian energy, over my dead body'. Well it should not be lost on Cameron that whether we buy it direct or not, Thatcher has indeed gone and this country has to 'rely' on mad Russian political whims influencing energy prices.

flipflop21 · 10/03/2014 22:22

Isitmebut . You have provided me with a clearer picture of the relationship between Russian gas and Germany and other countries now.

There are alternative perspectives to the Telegraph regarding the threat from Putin:

uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/ukraine-crisis-gas-europe-idUKL6N0M50BK20140308

www.policymic.com/articles/84677/to-understand-what-s-really-happening-in-ukraine-follow-the-gas-lines-on-this-map

One thing though Isitmebut, I'm struggling to see how the amount of shale gas the UK could produce, particularly in the next ten years or so will make a difference to the volatility of prices.

The UK would produce the gas and then sell it to the highest bidder on the EU market. In order to replace the 30% share Russia has of the European market and the additional percentage produced by the Middle East, we would have to produce vast amounts. If it takes 100,000 wells to be drilled to provide only a fraction of the UK's requirements - how many wells will need to be drilled make a dent in the EU market? We haven't got the same geology or space as the US. Proposed drillings sites are virtually on people's doorsteps and these people are not protected from the impact of this industry - blowouts, flaring, spillages, truck and tanker movements etc, let alone the other risks people are concerned about. These are risks that are definately there and the risk is increased due to the number of wells required and the proximity of these wells to homes and communities.

Increasing storage would have a far more immediate benefit and less detriment.

Consider the alternatives - if we invest elsewhere within the same time span what else could we be using to reduce our dependency on gas from Russia and the Middle East? Fracking is not an immediate result and even at full production there is only the potential to meet a percentage of the UKs needs, let alone denting the EU market.

flipflop21 · 12/03/2014 22:38

Just found this and thought I'd air it Isitmebut. I thought it was good..

"The political objective of a new European energy security strategy does not have to be a question of cutting off Russian gas supplies, but rather of achieving a level of flexibility that could allow the EU more choice of energy supply and greater resilience against conflicts in neighbouring countries. If the European Union had such a strategy and the resolve to implement it, it would have moved half way down the road to full energy security."

blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/03/12/europe-can-wean-itself-off-russian-gas/

Isitmebut · 13/03/2014 18:20

Flipflop…I was going to answer your previous post, but ended up answering a potty-mouth on another thread first, which is strange because I I usually respond better to nice/polite people, especially if talking about one of my favourite subjects, how markets react.

While I’m now on your other post, let me quickly comment on your last one, and I’m sorry to disappoint you, as European leaders themselves are already pushing the agenda to wean themselves off of Russian gas on energy security grounds, but it is likely to mean pushing back on climate clean energy policies.

Poland, historically used to Russian aggression is more than concerned that the leading power within the EU folded so easily on Putin’s territorial grab, and with an estimated shale gas reserve of 25% that of the U.S., note their new policy below.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-11/putin-opens-up-europe-s-energy-fault-line-along-oder-neisse.html

“Vladimir Putin’s play to wrest control of Ukraine is accentuating divisions in the European Union over how to balance climate and energy policies, driving a wedge between Germany and its eastern neighbor Poland.”

“The German-Polish split underscores a broader dilemma over the direction of Europe’s $13 trillion economy and the energy model that powers it. Merkel is focused on cutting pollution and closing German nuclear reactors, consuming more Russian gas in the process. Tusk, more concerned with energy security, is pushing coal and atomic power, and yesterday backed a law to speed up hydraulic fracking to get at domestic hydrocarbons.”

“Germany and Poland in many ways represent a fault line when it comes to defining Europe’s future energy mix,” William Pearson, London-based director for global energy and natural resources at the Eurasia Group, a political-risk consultancy, said in a March 7 telephone interview. Both, he said, “enjoy the support” of other EU nations.”

Isitmebut · 14/03/2014 12:35

Flip-flop…back to your 10th March 22;22 post; so let me immediately make one thing clear, I am not expecting the Uk to either worry about, or actually supply, Europe in shale gas. In basic numbers, never mind EU gas CONSUMPTION, as the UK roughly consumes around HALF of the entire EU PRODUCTION, their energy prices and security can not be our concern.

And lets remember that the UK is not the only country sitting on shale energy. Russia unfortunately is also rich in shale gas, BUT China and the U.S. are likely to become the largest shale EXPORTERS, with Argentina and Mexico fairly close behind, but quite how that can be piped to Europe, again that is not currently our concern, but will help keep a lid on market prices/volatility.

But in the context of your post 10th March , just taking the U.S. as an example of what we could do domestically, they are first satisfying domestic demand (and security) before exporting shale gas – with the following (I’m sure arguably) positive repercussions mentioned in the link below.

“How the U.S. shale boom will be felt around the world”
www.cnbc.com/id/101416763

I’ll get to MARKET PRICES and storage in a moment, but the security of UK GAS supplies clearly is our problem, especially when we consider our usage in split into 3 roughly equal sectors; our electricity generation, our domestic/heating uses and our Industries – all nationally imperative to our daily lives, especially as electricity power ‘outages’ are already due within a few years, or the first severe/prolonged UK winter.

For the sake of my argument, lets assume that the estimated figures on shale gas reserves are correct and the 10% recovery statistic is correct. The UK apparently has 1.300 trillion cubic feet of ONSHORE shale gas (just across 11 counties, never mind the rest) and if only 10% of that is recoverable, on back-of cigarette packet calculations, that is around 50-years of OUR needs. And that is without the OFFSHORE shale gas, potentially estimated to have reserves several times our proven onshore reserves.

Safety of lifting the (fracked) gas aside, why would we choose not to get both the energy and economic benefits of shale energy, while other countries blessed with the ‘stuff’ see all the domestic potential benefits and start exploration/lifting? Storage of 30, 60, or even 90-days gas supplies MAY protect us from short term energy ‘shocks, but storage will not protect us from medium to long term upward price trends.

To expand on my storage view, I’ll reiterate an earlier point, in an already ‘tight’ energy market, most country gas producers to my knowledge are not sitting on huge excess capacity that can be turned up at a moments notice, so the majority of their ‘product’ has been bought (possibly months before in the Futures markets) in fixed quantities and fixed prices. So in an energy ‘shock’, that can last for years as a threat or event, there is a bun fight for any spare energy e.g. gas, just as the price has rocketed (remembering markets ‘discount’ good or bad news into a price often several months ahead).

And currently whether we doubled our storage or not, the UK (as an importer) has to join that bun fight and pay whatever they have to,

Now you could rightly turn my earlier information back on me and say, let the other countries exporting shale gas stop the price rises, but that can no more be relied on than say OPEC, meeting and then collectively lowering the amount of oil lifted to maintain an oil price ‘around $90 to $110 that they consider both protects the countries within with higher production costs, and is ‘fair’ to all. And the richer the emerging countries become, the more energy their populations will need/consume, putting further upward pressures (that currently doesn’t exist) on energy prices.

Finally, I agree shale gas will not solve our energy problems now, but IMO whether financially or practically, with electricity outages soon, we have left it far too late to explore and nationally invest in ‘alternatives’, as no decisions were made when we HAD the money and time.

If we had acted on policy statements around 2005, we would be on schedule to replace nuclear energy in 2015 to STOP those outages, rather than having just started on them. If as a nation in the 2000’s we would have made less profligate 'fat government' choices and invested more time and money in renewables, one again we would also be tapping that energy now.

Instead we are heading for £1,500,000,000,000 (£1.5 trillion) of national debt by 2015, and in the likelihood of an anti business Labour administration coming in until 2020, the ONLY way of reducing the interest on that debt, never mind the principal amount, is by business profits/growth, spending cuts, and/or tax rises. Isitmebut is it a stretch to see under Labour lower business growth, less spending cuts and more taxes?

This to my mind puts the final nail in national renewable energy investment and makes the fracking tax receipts and energy supply/security, for all businesses and consumers, somewhat of a national necessity.

flipflop21 · 14/03/2014 21:50

Shale gas will not make any difference in the short term to any up and coming power outages. It's all very well saying if we had done such and such in 2005 we wouldn't have this problem now. Fracking will not solve that problem so I reiterate my question - what will?

Regarding fracking tax receipts and national debt - in your opinion how much risk to human health does there have to be to make it a risk not worth taking?

For example how happy would you be for example for a flare to be burning 24 hours a day just a km from your home? Flaring can result in a number of toxic chemicals being released into the atmosphere. There is a risk of high levels of plyacromatic hydrocarbons, sulphur di-oxide and soot particles. There are no emission limits in the permits and the oil/gas company doing the drilling only spot sample for a few chemicals. There is also no restriction on how close they can drill to residential areas.

Whilst some see pound signs, the realities of shale extraction - not the media hyped up version, the up close and personal experience of onshore oil/gas exploration is not a positive one.

Can you understand my concerns?

Isitmebut · 15/03/2014 01:02

Flipflop…of course I understand your concerns, they are no doubt everyone’s concerns, until proven safe – but as history is littered with peoples concerns on ‘change’, that turned out to be unfounded and/or outweighed by the benefits – everyone has to be open to facts.

But how stupid will it be on all levels including carbon footprints, if fracked gas has to travel here from China, the U.S. or South America, when we are sitting on our own.

As for your “its all very well saying if we had done such and such in 2005 we would not have the problems now”, I cannot understand why you are not getting the irony that INACTION a decade ago to a known problem, is bad governance that affects the people through their pockets.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/1983467-UK-Energy-Policy-Price-scandal-outages-due

Especially when the last Energy Minister of that government (Miliband), has been cynically electioneering that despite energy shocks like Russia/Ukraine, the fool can CONTROL energy prices now, by telling the companies that he KNEW back then were building nuclear power stations at their own cost (that would have to be recovered via people’s bills), has to now absorb the costs of energy price volatility.

Why then for the privilege of subsidising the UK with power stations costing around £10 billion each and then below market price energy, would these energy companies then build these nuclear power stations?

So this is not just about tax receipts, it is a building national crisis and we should not compound bad governance a decade ago, with more now, ‘making do’ with planned outages over the short term, for the benefit of the medium to long term.

I reiterate we had the largest annual budget deficit in Europe, so we cannot NOW afford large investments in renewable energy ourselves that will provide relatively little power to fill the growing energy gap, yet happen to be sitting on a huge natural resource – so the SOONER we know the facts and lift the stuff safely, the better.

As to YOUR scare stories of ‘flames, toxic this, hydro that, and other fatal malarkeys’ next to homes, the Bowland Shale Basin in the UK, said to be the largest basin of shale gas in the world, IS SPREAD ACROSS 11 COUNTIES. Why in god’s name would drilling have to be next to my home, or anyone elses?

Until we KNOW shale gas is recoverable safely, is there any surprise there is no legislation in place specifying distances from residential and other properties.

flipflop21 · 15/03/2014 07:20

There is an exploration bore hole a km from my home, in fact it is less than a km from 1000s of homes.
Yes - why on earth have they been allowed to do it there? You tell me.

flipflop21 · 15/03/2014 07:58

Sorry more precisely 1.1 km from the homes of about 2000 people.

flipflop21 · 21/03/2014 19:10

Isitmebut - you have presented strong arguments regarding the economics of fracking but that is only part of the picture. No response to my last post ? Are you a converted anti-fracker? Hmm

Isitmebut · 21/03/2014 21:03

May I plead ‘the 5th’ rather than disappoint you and your Green Captain Sensible views?

Seriously, although I can imagine that there are all sorts of nasty toxic niffs coming out of carbon energy bore holes of any kind, and anywhere, from coal mines to North Sea oil rigs, but I have no idea how they adapt/nullify/disperse them.

As you know my arguments are simple on national, security, economic, tax, market and costs grounds if the answer is legislate for all fracked shale PRODUCTION to be a ‘safe’ distance from homes, whatever that is, then so be it.

The exploratory bore holes to gauge the extent of reserves etc should not be close to homes, but if they are, adequate filtering or whatever of toxic niffs should always be provided.

If we as a country had decided that no coal should be mined, or no North Sea oil fields drilled in case something nasty came out, we could have been have been as ‘prosperous’ as a State run/subsidized Russia (without the oil) or a Portugal without the sun and beaches, who knows.

So I’m repeating earlier points, as a welfare State that clearly still wants to be so, but has an ongoing battle to balance our economy, heading for £1,500,000,000,000 (£1.5 trillion) of National Debt by 2015, with interest as ultra low rates we still are paying £53 billion a year in debt service cost - that can only go substantially higher and eating into annual spending budgets for decades to come – we have to embrace fracking, utilizing whatever cutting edge technology we have, to make it safe.

flipflop21 · 21/03/2014 22:57

I'll not send you some lentils to weave then!

Regarding your nasty toxic niffs (so to speak!) you say there should be adequate filtering - by that I presume you mean that they should be able to extract hydorcarbons without reducing local air quality to a harmful level?

If safety features which mitigate the risks posed by flaring are not in place should exploration/ extraction companies be allowed to carry on and drill anyway?

Isitmebut · 22/03/2014 00:48

I suspect however ‘bad’ the opposite of a lentil weaver is, I’d be holding my hands up on most counts, sorry.

Air quality is always good, flaring avoided at all costs, to satisfy the greens, maybe nature should be the benchmark?

Someone should stand behind a cow and test for the niff, toxicity and flare risks of their farts – if any worse than that, it shouldn’t be allowed by law.

Who sez I'm making up policies up on the hoof.

flipflop21 · 22/03/2014 23:40

They could do the cow arse test.

Or they could monitor the air properly and then make sure that they are using the best available technology to reduce rogue emissions. They could also run a gas analysis to ensure that they know what gases are likely to be released.

But this isn't what they do - it's too expensive and slow. So unless there's obsessive anti-frackers finding this stuff out and asking questions, oil and gas companies can appear to do virtually what they want.

Incidentally, my green credentials are virtually non-existent. I wanted to actually like fracking as they were potentially doing it so close to me. But now I've looked beyond flaming taps and tax revenues, I don't.

Isitmebut · 24/03/2014 10:40

I passed the horse’s ar$e test with honours, and now aspire to the cows.

On that subject (kinda), I saw a Countryfile repeat yesterday morning, and one of the subjects was a localised industry using a 24-hour chicken pooh converter into methane, and then making electricity – and I was quite impressed.

So now I’ll own up, generally I am pro green/energy renewables if 24-hour practical e.g. a wind turbine that can function (rather than be turned off) in a stiff British gale, and the cost of production isn’t at too much of a premium to traditional carbon based/nuclear energy.

But as I’ve mentioned, on nuclear power that forms the mainstay of most countries energy source balance, we have we have both run out of money and time, relying on a foreign State to both fund and design our new age reactors.

And yes if we had more money (and time) we could plough funds into developing more renewables, but due to our projected energy gap for years ahead we would be running just to stand still, so we need a plan to leap that gap within years.

But where we totally agree is that there should be NO shortcuts using all current and bespoke technology to solve every current safety issue raised.

Once on stream, fracking gives us so many options, so if the/any government wants to get the people on side with fracking, then IMO they have to OVER compensate on addressing peoples safety fears, after all, better found diligent now, than being found malfeasant later.

flipflop21 · 24/03/2014 21:11

This looks good too:

www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/exclusive-renewable-energy-from-rivers-and-lakes-could-replace-gas-in-homes-9210277.html
"Millions of homes across the UK could be heated using a carbon-free technology that draws energy from rivers and lakes in a revolutionary system that could reduce household bills by 20 per cent."

Regarding safety, the government keeps reiterating how our regulatory measures are so robust, however the experience locally is that this is not the case. There are so many anomalies:

planning application inaccuracies,
lack of Environmental Assessments,
ineffective monitoring,
self monitoring,

necessary permits to remove waste not being in place,
planning agreements regarding truck movements and noise levels not being adhered to,

drilling companies having limited liabilities for any damage they may cause .. the list goes on.

The reality of regulation vs the govenrment rhetoric is my greatest concern.

The government has got a lot of work to do to convince me that they have our best interests at heart when they overturn european directives for mandatory Enviromental Impact Assessments, when they are actively "streamlining" the permit application processes, changing the law in order to reduce local government's power to object to drilling applications cutting the funding one of the regulatory bodies (the EA) lobbying to change the law to enable drilling under peoples' homes so if people do object they won't be able to do a thing about it, and then arresting people who protest peacefully.

This is all within the context of key members within the cabinet having investments (and in the case of Lord Browne a directorship) in drilling companies.

At Fernhurst, West Sussex the drilling company said that each well they fracked would produce enough oil to supply the UK for three days. Three days??? What's the point of that?!

So as I say - they have a lot of work to do.

claig · 24/03/2014 21:33

"In reality it is becoming increasingly clear that the shale revolution is a short-term flash in the energy pan, a new Ponzi fraud, carefully built with the aid of the same Wall Street banks and their “market analyst” friends, many of whom brought us the 2000 “dot.com” bubble and, more spectacularly, the 2002-2007 US real estate securitization bubble"

Saw an interesting article about shale gas where the pretty good political analyst, William Engdahl, said that it was a ponzi scheme. First time I have heard that, so don't know if it is true. But he is often quite a good analyst - he rightly says that global warming is a scam and he is spot on on GM food etc.

Tha article I saw was about Ukraine and how he felt that the shale prospects there were not as good as were being made out.

At Fernhurst, West Sussex the drilling company said that each well they fracked would produce enough oil to supply the UK for three days. Three days??? What's the point of that?!

He says that a lot of the extraction is uneconomic and there are not long-lasting reserves that can be accessed from some of the wells.

Here is one of his many articles on the theme, explaining his thinking

www.globalresearch.ca/the-fracked-up-usa-shale-gas-bubble/5326504

Isitmebut · 25/03/2014 10:32

Claig…I guess I get the point that over the centuries we have had hyped up new commodity markets; the tulip, South Sea Bubble, rail, cars, planes, internet etc where stock market valuations soar in a kind of frenzied investor Ponzi scheme, then reality sets in, and valuations crash, taking decades to get back to original lofty heights.

The U.S. has already seen huge benefits in shale that has created countless jobs, lowered costs to businesses and consumers – and they will be self sufficient in oil/gas and exporting the stuff within a few years now; some Ponzi Scheme.

The recoverable shale gas benefits to the UK lasting 50-years are being calculated at 10% of proven reserves across 11 counties, which I don't think covers Sussex. Even if its only 5% recoverable and lasts 25-years, it buys us time. IMO.

Maybe if people stopped objecting to exploration wells and companies realised that there was only '3-days supply', they'd move on, and save a whole lot of stress/knicker bunching to those who will NOT be affected directly.

flipflop21 · 25/03/2014 20:10

Isitmebut Sussex is definately on the cards for being fracked - that's why they're exploring there. Kimmeridge clay of the Weald Basin is a gas rich shale.

This map shows in yellow where licences are already in place and in blue where they are consulting on now.

blog.decc.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/SEA-and-licensed-areas-.jpg

You need to be aware Isitmebut that on average a shale well will produce 1.25 bcm of gas in its lifetime. The UK consumes approx 87bcm per year. This works out as .24bcm a day. Therefore each well will produce enough gas to fuel the UK for 5.2 days.

How many wells will you need to produce 40 years of gas for the whole of the uk? You do the maths - I've already gone over this before.

Isitmebut · 25/03/2014 20:52

Re Sussex, excuse me I lost focus, for some reason I was just thinking about the Bowland shale basin due to that is where most recoverable gas figures come from that I've seen.

I get your point on one well (and nasty niffs) fueling the UK for 5.2 days, but based on time and cost, I wonder how long a wind turbine would fuel the UK for, 5.2 seconds? Just a silly thought, move on, nothing to worry about.

flipflop21 · 25/03/2014 20:57

How long does a wind turbine last? The average life of a fracking well is about 8 years - so in it's lifetime a wind turbine would probably provide more energy.. not sure though.

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