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Politics

For those complaining about 'excessive regulation' and 'red tape' of the UK's labour market

49 replies

ttosca · 29/07/2012 18:00

Trying to inject some facts in to the conversation, instead of listening to the Torygraph and corporate shills;

OECD Indicators of Employment Protection

The OECD indicators of employment protection measure the procedures and costs involved in dismissing individuals or groups of workers and the procedures involved in hiring workers on fixed-term or temporary work agency contracts. It is important to note that employment protection refers to only one dimension of the complex set of factors that influence labour market flexibility. For information on other labour market policies and institutions in OECD countries, see the OECD Employment Database.

www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3746,en_2649_37457_42695243_1_1_1_37457,00.html

See where the UK is? Third from the bottom - after the US and Canada.


There is no further need to degrade workers rights even further in the UK. The UK public are already exploited enough, and are already insecure enough in their jobs. People who are unsure of their next paycheque are less likely to buy consumer goods, take out loans, start a side business, attempt to relocate, invest in their education, and generally take risks.

Apart from being immoral, poor labour protection is bad for the economy.

And as we're seeing now, the problem is with demand, not supply. Further deregulating business to third-world conditions will not help when no one is going to spend money to buy your products because everyone to too insecure about their income and putting food on their plate.

OP posts:
ttosca · 01/08/2012 14:04

MrJudgeyPants-

Let me understand you correctly then. You are suggesting that neither small nor big business should be 'burdened' with regulation regarding maternity leave because it may harm business.

You don't want an alternative solution where the state subsidises maternity leave.

You think we should be simplifying the rules and regulations for businesses.

So what you are, in effect, suggesting is that businesses should be able to descriminate against women of child-bearing age on the basis that they may have a child. And furthermore, you are proposing something - no state subsidies - which will make it even more likely that this will happen.

Well, then, I have nothing to say except that I think that idea is odious and wrong, and following along that line, with respect to other things as well, will roll back hundreds of years worth of battles fought and won by the public: women, minorities, children to not be discriminated against to be treated equally in public.

This is not a strawman at all. You may not claim to want to roll back these rights, but what you are proposing will do exactly that.

As for Britain being more liberal that Europe, yes you are quite right, we are. Unfortunately, we have many more international competitors than our, currently moribund, European brethren and it is to those competitors that we should be looking.

Yes, that's a brilliant idea. We should try to compete on an equal footing with China and Indonesia, where they have no minimum wage laws, unions are for the most part forbidden, there is discrimination and abuse at the workplace... etc.

Or maybe we shouldn't regresss to social conditions resembling a third-world country.

OP posts:
flatpackhamster · 01/08/2012 19:21

ttossca

You don't want an alternative solution where the state subsidises maternity leave.

You think we should be simplifying the rules and regulations for businesses.

So what you are, in effect, suggesting is that businesses should be able to descriminate against women of child-bearing age on the basis that they may have a child. And furthermore, you are proposing something - no state subsidies - which will make it even more likely that this will happen.

Businesses already do that. They just don't admit to it.

Well, then, I have nothing to say except that I think that idea is odious and wrong, and following along that line, with respect to other things as well, will roll back hundreds of years worth of battles fought and won by the public: women, minorities, children to not be discriminated against to be treated equally in public.

Hundreds? A bit of a gap in your history knowledge, I think.

Yes, that's a brilliant idea. We should try to compete on an equal footing with China and Indonesia, where they have no minimum wage laws, unions are for the most part forbidden, there is discrimination and abuse at the workplace... etc.

The alternative is 15% of the workforce unable to find work because labour laws are too tight. Take a look at France's unemployment problems. Even in the boom years of 2002-2005, they never got below 8% unemployment. Even when everyone else's economy was booming, 1 in 12 of those actively seeking work couldn't get it.

You can't have near-full employment and high costs for small businesses. The higher your costs go, the more small businesses close down and the more reliant you are on the existing big businesses and the state.

Or maybe we shouldn't regresss to social conditions resembling a third-world country.

I'm sure that this Toynbee-esque hyperbole goes down well on the Guardian website, but it's hardly constructive.

edam · 01/08/2012 23:07

Hundreds is correct if the item under discussion is the fight for protection against dangerous and unfair treatment at work. Since you are so keen on history, you'll know that the Tolpuddle Martyrs formed a union in 1834. And that it was Victorian workers - men, women and children - who fought for the right to be safe at work, and Victorian social reforms that stopped women hauling coal trucks in mines.

Sparrowp · 01/08/2012 23:19

Judgypants wants to discriminate against women, because he doesn't want the state to pay them maternity leave. So his solution is that he wants less employment protection rights, so that if they get pregnant he can sack them at will.

Riiiight Hmm

lol

MrJudgeyPants · 01/08/2012 23:55

ttosca I think where we are fundamentally at odds is that you believe the state should attempt to cure all of society?s ills. I believe, and have consistently argued, that the state is generally incompetent and creates perverse incentives for us to follow. I would much rather see lower taxation for all and for strong extended family units to pick up the slack (with exceptions for the disabled and elderly). I believe that the large state, and its inevitable high taxation, forces more people to have to compete in the workplace (note how the percentage of women in the workforce has changed since the 1950's and how this is no longer a choice but a necessity for an ever growing number of families) for a restricted number of jobs - classic supply / demand economics driving down wages. Under these circumstances, the reduction of this tax burden on both individuals and businesses becomes a universally 'good' thing. Again, those at the margins can give up work leaving their job for someone who needs it.

To this end, it is perfectly feasible to be against the state picking up the tab for maternity pay and to be against businesses being coerced into ever tighter regulation.

"hundreds of years worth of battles fought and won by the public: women, minorities, children to not be discriminated against "

But they are currently being discriminated against. I explained how I can't afford to risk taking on a woman because of maternity leave so I only take on staff (of both genders) on fixed term contracts. Surely you can see that this law is counterproductive. Similarly, young people are discriminated against all the time - hence our high levels of youth unemployment. It happens. Pretending otherwise doesn't fix anything.

Your final point is so wide of the mark I'd be tempted to call it a straw man again. I'm not advocating a return to Dickensian standards; however, I question a system which leaves a rump of around two million declared unemployed (God alone knows how many ACTUAL unemployed we had) during the height of the longest sustained period of economic expansion in our country's recent history i.e. the period from the early/mid 90's to 2008.

MrJudgeyPants · 01/08/2012 23:57

Sparrowp - Wronnnnng!

flatpackhamster · 02/08/2012 10:58

MrJudgeyPants

Sparrowp - Wronnnnng!

Of course Sparrowp is wrong. Remember, it's much easier to demonise your opponent than to deal intellectually with their arguments. By demonising them you're saying "This person is a bad person, and therefore anything they say must be wrong too." ttosca used it in the beginning of the thread, when she claimed that anyone who disagreed with her was a 'corporate shill' - that is, someone being paid by big business to log on to mumsnet and post an alternative viewpoint.

MrJudgeyPants · 02/08/2012 11:44

flatpack you may have a point but I think it's an inherent problem with forum based discussion. In a nutshell, unless you want to end up with reams of typed text (and I know I am as guilty as anyone for this) you have to write in easily digestible sound bites. As Tony Blair found out when he was PM, it's easy enough to get a single message across in this way, but nigh on impossible to put across a grand narrative.

Even if you do write a long essay, most people won't bother to read it - of those who do, half will fail to comprehend it, and there's always one nob-head who will respond with a comment as intellectually valid as "Your Mum smells of poo". I'm afraid that is just the way it works!

Sparrowp · 02/08/2012 18:57

"Judgypants wants to discriminate against women, because he doesn't want the state to pay them maternity leave. So his solution is that he wants less employment protection rights, so that if they get pregnant he can sack them at will."

Yes, this is a correct assessment. The maternity leave is not for mrpants, its for the lady for her to have a baby.

Think again mrpants! think!

MrJudgeyPants · 02/08/2012 23:49

I still think that the front line provider for welfare should be the family - except for the disabled and elderly - paid for by letting the people keep more of the money that they've earned.

I've also waxed lyrical about a citizen?s basic income which can be borrowed against in times of difficulty, thus providing a decent safety net.

I just don't accept that a large interventionist state is the only way, or even the best way, to provide for the welfare needs of the people. Perhaps you'd care to elucidate why you believe that it is?

ttosca · 03/08/2012 18:17

Well, this has been a constructive thread.

The pernicious and ignorant extremist free-market ideology of MrJudgeyPants and Flatpack has been exposed for all to see.

It's ignorant because these regressive policies are not necessary for a successful and thriving economy: see Germany, France, Australia, Denmark, etc. The number of unemployed is a consequence of the recession, not because labour laws are too tight.

The 'Golden era' of economies in the West was the post-war period of 1945 to about 1979, where the standard of living rose for everybody, wages in real terms grew for everybody, unemployment was mostly low, and wealth inequality was at its lowest point.

The post 90's era saw a continued declined in real-term wages for the vast majority of the population, rising wealth inequality (culminating in the 80 year peak we have today), job insecurity, massive debt, and unemployment.

It's pernicious because the return to Dickensian standards of employment is an inevitable consequence of the type of policies and ideology you are proposing. People have fought centuries for these protections and they will not give them up without a fight.

Let me guess... you guys are both Tory voters, right?

OP posts:
claig · 03/08/2012 18:23

Agree with ttosca. A race to the bottom and few public services suits nobody but a tiny elite. And I do read an occasional copy of the Daily Mail and usually vote Tory.

claig · 03/08/2012 18:25

I think many of us would like more regulation and red tape for the bankers for starters, and can only dream of an economy like Germany's, which is able to bail out the whole of Europe without over-reliance on "services to banking".

edam · 03/08/2012 23:16

MrJP, are you really not aware that not every family is like the Waltons? Or that excluding the elderly and disabled from your proposal means you wouldn't save much money or cut the size of the welfare state at all? It's the state pension and associated benefits for poorer pensioners that make up the biggest chunk of spending. Saying 'we should abolish welfare for everyone except the elderly or disabled' is kind of pointless, achieves very little in terms of saving money but would cause great hardship and suffering to the people affected.

MrJudgeyPants · 04/08/2012 00:11

ttosca Thanks for the polemic - once again I see you failed to address the key points I raised. Never mind, there's always next time.

"The 'Golden era' of economies in the West was the post-war period of 1945 to about 1979, where the standard of living rose for everybody, wages in real terms grew for everybody, unemployment was mostly low, and wealth inequality was at its lowest point."

If you think the 70's were a golden time for the west then I think you are barking mad. I agree the period immediately following the war did see living standards rise but, coming immediately after the largest depression and world war in history, it was always going to.

What we've seen since that time has been an increase in the burden of taxation amongst the poorer end of society; specifically the twin policies of VAT and fiscal drag.

In addition to this, rampant house price inflation has further, disproportionally, eroded the spending power amongst the poor. As the responsibility of each of these problems ultimately lies with the government, deliberately setting out to enlarge the states power any more is a fool?s errand.

"It's pernicious because the return to Dickensian standards of employment is an inevitable consequence of the type of policies and ideology you are proposing."

Nonsense, I'm suggesting rolling back interference from the state back to levels seen during the post war boom - a golden time for employment as you yourself have stated - this time, however, without the widespread nationalisations which destroyed so much of Britain's industry. I don't recall that employment standards were that bad then.

"Let me guess... you guys are both Tory voters, right?"

I'm no natural supporter of Cameron's, however, I consider the Labour party to be so self serving, economically incompetent and destructive that I'd happily hold my nose and vote for whoever stood the best chance of keeping those wreckers away from the levers of power. Only in the absence of a truly free market libertarian alternative will I hold my nose and vote Tory. I suppose you must be one of the sheep who vote Labour despite the fact that unemployment is always higher when they leave office than it is when they get in, the country?s finances are always screwed up and the poor that they purport to represent are never any better off.

MrJudgeyPants · 04/08/2012 00:29

edam The total welfare budget including provision for pensioners and the disabled is £255.1 Billion. The budget for just the pensioners and the disabled alone is £138.1. The figures are here. To describe a welfare budget of £117 Billion, which amounts to just over 7% of GDP, as negligible is total nonsense.

ttosca · 08/08/2012 15:16

MrJudgeyPant-

If you think the 70's were a golden time for the west then I think you are barking mad. I agree the period immediately following the war did see living standards rise but, coming immediately after the largest depression and world war in history, it was always going to.

Er, no, it's not just the fact that relative to WWII living standards rose. The whole post-war up until the late 1970s saw low levels of income inequality:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/income-inequality/

Real median income grew steadily up until the late 1970s:

www.currydemocrats.org/american_pie.html

After which it stagnated, despite rising productivity of the workforce.

You can also see on that page that the total of national share of income dropped for the vast majority.

And yes, the figures are pretty much the same for the UK. Our economies are similar.

The problem is a direct consequence of the neo-liberal policies of deregulation which you're so fond of.

What we've seen since that time has been an increase in the burden of taxation amongst the poorer end of society; specifically the twin policies of VAT and fiscal drag.

Yes, you're right about that - but I don't think you'd like the solution, which is to take more progressively. The tax burden has shifted away from corporations and on to individuals: specifically the poor and middle-classes. This has resulted in stagnating wages and rising wealth inequality, whilst the richest have experienced a boom.

In addition to this, rampant house price inflation has further, disproportionally, eroded the spending power amongst the poor. As the responsibility of each of these problems ultimately lies with the government, deliberately setting out to enlarge the states power any more is a fool?s errand.

The rampant house price rises allowed people to obtain credit, which is what they needed in order to keep spending. It was in the governments and the economies interest.

I agree that you shouldn't run the economy on credit. But then you have to let people keep enough of the wealth that they create so that they have spending power and enough money to afford things without credit.

The ruling class thought they could have their cake and eat it: suppress wages and increase profits while simultaneously keeping up demand through credit. Now that the credit house of cards has fallen down, people have no money to spend, and the economy will continue to stagnate until they do have money to spend.

Either people are given a break, and progressive taxation is put in place, and corporations start to pay their share, or we attempt to start the whole crooked cycle again by pushing credit on to consumers. Which do you think will happen?

Nonsense, I'm suggesting rolling back interference from the state back to levels seen during the post war boom - a golden time for employment as you yourself have stated - this time, however, without the widespread nationalisations which destroyed so much of Britain's industry. I don't recall that employment standards were that bad then.

lol. Thirty years of neo-liberalism hasn't brought us a highly regulated country in which to do business. It is already highly deregulated in comparison with europe. Worker protections and union powers are the lowest they have been since the post-war period.

Which laws, exactly, would you do away with? The minimum wage? The right to form a union? anti-discrimination laws - oh wait, you've already answered that one... that's why you're so hard to take seriously.

I'm no natural supporter of Cameron's, however, I consider the Labour party to be so self serving, economically incompetent and destructive that I'd happily hold my nose and vote for whoever stood the best chance of keeping those wreckers away from the levers of power. Only in the absence of a truly free market libertarian alternative will I hold my nose and vote Tory. I suppose you must be one of the sheep who vote Labour despite the fact that unemployment is always higher when they leave office than it is when they get in, the country?s finances are always screwed up and the poor that they purport to represent are never any better off.

Yeah, those Tories are really economically competent. It's only been the longest recession for 50 years, thanks to Tory policies of hack and slash of public spending and attacks on the poor:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-stuck-in-longest-recession-for-50-years-7973434.html

No, I'm not a Labour supporter either. The two parties are both part of the problem, not the solution. They are both beholden to pernicious and destructive neo-liberal economic policies.

OP posts:
MrJudgeyPants · 10/08/2012 02:10

ttosca The period from the oil shock of the early 70's to the end of the 70's was as much of an unsustainable boom as was the boom which led to the current predicament we find ourselves in. Any graphs you care to link to will show an economy in much the same condition as ours was between approx 2003 to 2008 - i.e. broadly OK, nothing to see here... And then it all falls off a cliff.

"I don't think you'd like the solution, which is to take more progressively. The tax burden has shifted away from corporations and on to individuals"

I've said several times elsewhere that I'd like to see the poorest pay no tax whatsoever (the easiest way to meet the Joseph Rowntree Foundations recommendation for a minimum income which I assume that we both support) through having a larger personal allowance and to have all other taxes rolled together and included in a flat rate from that point onwards. I can't think of a fairer, more progressive system than that.

I don't see a problem with the tax burden shifting from corporations to individuals and here's why. At the end of the day all tax, irrespective of where you levy it, will be 'paid' by an individual somewhere. Income tax, council tax, capital gains and VAT are pretty obvious examples, but even corporation tax will reduce the dividend paid to the shareholders, reduce the wages of the workers, and increase the prices to the customer or, more likely, a combination of all three. Even employers NI reduces the wage packet of the workers by making them more expensive to hire. This is called tax incidence. I am of the opinion, backed with plenty of prescient examples, that it is harder for an individual to hide their income than it is for a multinational corporation. I therefore believe that simplifying the system is in all of our interests.

"Which laws would you do away with? The minimum wage? The right to form a union? anti-discrimination laws"

The minimum wage discriminates against the least skilled, the least experienced and those whose labour just isn't worth £6.08 per hour. In short, it discriminates against youth who have no record of work who, in the past, companies may have taken a punt on. Combined with worker protection regulations, it ensures that employers have little incentive to take on a school leaver whom they may subsequently have problems getting rid of. Look across Europe and it's clear that the twin policies of minimum wage and high levels of worker protection result in high unemployment amongst the young - this effect doesn't stop at 16, 18 or 21, it can affect individuals throughout their twenties.

"It's only been the longest recession for 50 years, thanks to Tory policies of hack and slash of public spending and attacks on the poor."

And absolutely nothing to do with policies from the years leading up to the 2010 election? If the Tories are hacking and slashing spending why are we still borrowing over 10% of GDP each year, just as we have been doing for each year since 2008? To put it another way, if one was to propose Keynesian spending (which is often held up as the counter-argument to the 'current' economic model) one would be advocating that the government should borrow heavily and spend to stimulate the economy - how would that differ from what they are actually doing?

"The two parties are both part of the problem, not the solution."

Blimey, something we agree on Smile. I'm not sure I'm going to like this, but what is your alternative?

flatpackhamster · 10/08/2012 14:19

ttosca

Well, this has been a constructive thread.

I expected little else. You're capable neither of understanding another person's point of view nor of delivering your own views in a cogent format.

The pernicious and ignorant extremist free-market ideology of MrJudgeyPants and Flatpack has been exposed for all to see.

It's ignorant because these regressive policies are not necessary for a successful and thriving economy: see Germany, France, Australia, Denmark, etc. The number of unemployed is a consequence of the recession, not because labour laws are too tight.

And as has been pointed out to you, several times, in short words, France has a permanent unemployable underclass comprising around 8% of the population, a direct result of its labour laws. But this was never about facts, was it? It was a chance for you to parade your idiocy under the pretence that you had even the faintest idea what you were talking about.

The 'Golden era' of economies in the West was the post-war period of 1945 to about 1979, where the standard of living rose for everybody, wages in real terms grew for everybody, unemployment was mostly low, and wealth inequality was at its lowest point.

Standards of living rose after World War 2, did they? That's amazing. I wonder if it was down to us not bombing and killing each other? But then, weren't you the person that said that it was OK for us to have immense debts because our debts were bigger when we were fighting for our lives against Nazi Germany? I do believe you were.

The post 90's era saw a continued declined in real-term wages for the vast majority of the population, rising wealth inequality (culminating in the 80 year peak we have today), job insecurity, massive debt, and unemployment.

It's pernicious because the return to Dickensian standards of employment is an inevitable consequence of the type of policies and ideology you are proposing. People have fought centuries for these protections and they will not give them up without a fight.

Let me guess... you guys are both Tory voters, right?

Watching you get schooled has been a delight. It's a shame that you're too dumb to recognise it, but then if you were clever you wouldn't be advocating a socialist command economy, would you?

ttosca · 15/08/2012 18:41

flatpack-

The period from the oil shock of the early 70's to the end of the 70's was as much of an unsustainable boom as was the boom which led to the current predicament we find ourselves in.

No. The current predicament we find ourselves is in due to a financial crisis borne out of the deregulation of the financial sector, starting in the 1980s, but continuing well up until the crisis.

Any graphs you care to link to will show an economy in much the same condition as ours was between approx 2003 to 2008 - i.e. broadly OK, nothing to see here... And then it all falls off a cliff.

Um, yes, it's called a financial crisis. The whole house of cards came tumbling down when banks stopped lending to each other because they new they all had dodgy debts.

"I don't think you'd like the solution, which is to take more progressively. The tax burden has shifted away from corporations and on to individuals"

I've said several times elsewhere that I'd like to see the poorest pay no tax whatsoever (the easiest way to meet the Joseph Rowntree Foundations recommendation for a minimum income which I assume that we both support) through having a larger personal allowance and to have all other taxes rolled together and included in a flat rate from that point onwards. I can't think of a fairer, more progressive system than that.

I agree about the poorest, or at least anyone on the minimum wage, not paying any tax whatsoever. Don't agree about a flax tax, though. They would mean middle-class families paying the same tax as a portion of their income on their whole income as multi-millionaires.

I don't see a problem with the tax burden shifting from corporations to individuals and here's why. At the end of the day all tax, irrespective of where you levy it, will be 'paid' by an individual somewhere. Income tax, council tax, capital gains and VAT are pretty obvious examples, but even corporation tax will reduce the dividend paid to the shareholders, reduce the wages of the workers, and increase the prices to the customer or, more likely, a combination of all three.

Yes, yes, I've heard that nonsense before - "corporations don't pay tax, they just pass it on to consumers." This is patently false in any reasonably competitive and well-regulated economy. The fact that corporations have spent billions in the past decades consistently lobbying for lower taxes is pretty good evidence of this.

Even employers NI reduces the wage packet of the workers by making them more expensive to hire. This is called tax incidence. I am of the opinion, backed with plenty of prescient examples, that it is harder for an individual to hide their income than it is for a multinational corporation. I therefore believe that simplifying the system is in all of our interests.

That's nice. It also means that corporations increase their profit margins, the top brass get paid outrageous salaries, whilst everyone else pays an ever increasing share of tax - no thanks.

"Which laws would you do away with? The minimum wage? The right to form a union? anti-discrimination laws"

The minimum wage discriminates against the least skilled, the least experienced and those whose labour just isn't worth £6.08 per hour. In short, it discriminates against youth who have no record of work who, in the past, companies may have taken a punt on. Combined with worker protection regulations, it ensures that employers have little incentive to take on a school leaver whom they may subsequently have problems getting rid of. Look across Europe and it's clear that the twin policies of minimum wage and high levels of worker protection result in high unemployment amongst the young - this effect doesn't stop at 16, 18 or 21, it can affect individuals throughout their twenties.

Oh for God's sake, man. This is just a pathetic and tired argument. A reasonable minimum wage will not have any significant effect on employment. Employers have complained throughout history about the evils of anti-dumping laws, anti-discrimination laws, anti-child labour laws, etc. always complaining that they would be put out of business. Yet, here we are today, with the highest GDP we've had in history and with top companies making historically unprecedented profits. It's completely nonsense.

UK employers warned that unemployment would skyrocket when the min wage was brought in. Guess what, it didn't.

"It's only been the longest recession for 50 years, thanks to Tory policies of hack and slash of public spending and attacks on the poor."

And absolutely nothing to do with policies from the years leading up to the 2010 election?

Oh yes, absolutely. Deregulation of the financial sector, by both New labour and the Tory scum allowed the financial mobsters to cause this crisis. This neo-liberal agenda of deregulation has been happening for decades.

If the Tories are hacking and slashing spending why are we still borrowing over 10% of GDP each year, just as we have been doing for each year since 2008?

Very good, you're learning! :) We're still borrowing because hack and slash doesn't work, and the economy is shrinking, people are not spending, people are being fired, and the govt. has to pay more in welfare. That's what happens when suck out all the life of the economy.

To put it another way, if one was to propose Keynesian spending (which is often held up as the counter-argument to the 'current' economic model) one would be advocating that the government should borrow heavily and spend to stimulate the economy - how would that differ from what they are actually doing?

They're not borrowing heavily. They're paying off interest payments and trying to reduce the deficit by slashing spending. What they need to do is actually spend money on infrastructure projects which will create employment and get the economy going again.

Even that Tory scum Boris Johnson said major construction projects should be enacted immediately to help the economy (as well as supply-side reforms, which are not needed).

"The two parties are both part of the problem, not the solution."

Blimey, something we agree on smile. I'm not sure I'm going to like this, but what is your alternative?

Democracy.

OP posts:
ttosca · 15/08/2012 18:57

flatpack-

I expected little else. You're capable neither of understanding another person's point of view nor of delivering your own views in a cogent format.

Guess who show any figures to back up anything they said? You did.

The pernicious and ignorant extremist free-market ideology of MrJudgeyPants and Flatpack has been exposed for all to see.

It's ignorant because these regressive policies are not necessary for a successful and thriving economy: see Germany, France, Australia, Denmark, etc. The number of unemployed is a consequence of the recession, not because labour laws are too tight.

And as has been pointed out to you, several times, in short words, France has a permanent unemployable underclass comprising around 8% of the population, a direct result of its labour laws. But this was never about facts, was it? It was a chance for you to parade your idiocy under the pretence that you had even the faintest idea what you were talking about.

And Sweden has an average (over the past 10 years) unemployment rate of about 5.5%,

Australia about 5.5%,
Sweden about 6.5%,
Denmark about 5%,
Norway about 3.5%,
Netherlands about 4.5%,

All of which are social-democratic states with much greater regulation of the job market than the UK and most of which currently have a lower unemployment rate than the UK.

www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=74&c=sw&l=en

See what happens when you make spurious correlations?

The 'Golden era' of economies in the West was the post-war period of 1945 to about 1979, where the standard of living rose for everybody, wages in real terms grew for everybody, unemployment was mostly low, and wealth inequality was at its lowest point.

Standards of living rose after World War 2, did they? That's amazing. I wonder if it was down to us not bombing and killing each other?

No, it's clearly not just that, because the 'Golden era' ended at the end of the 1970s, wherein wages began to stagnate for the majority.

But then, weren't you the person that said that it was OK for us to have immense debts because our debts were bigger when we were fighting for our lives against Nazi Germany? I do believe you were.

No, I didn't say that. I showed that we didn't have immense debts (relative to GDP), and that our problem lies with the deficit, not our debt. I also showed that our debt has been higher for most of the 20th Century, not just the 10 or 20 years after WWII.

The post 90's era saw a continued declined in real-term wages for the vast majority of the population, rising wealth inequality (culminating in the 80 year peak we have today), job insecurity, massive debt, and unemployment.

It's pernicious because the return to Dickensian standards of employment is an inevitable consequence of the type of policies and ideology you are proposing. People have fought centuries for these protections and they will not give them up without a fight.

Let me guess... you guys are both Tory voters, right?

Watching you get schooled has been a delight. It's a shame that you're too dumb to recognise it, but then if you were clever you wouldn't be advocating a socialist command economy, would you?

Yes, dear. I think you should put down the Ayn Rand novels now. They are, after all, fantasy and nothing on which to base your opinion and theories of economics.

OP posts:
MrJudgeyPants · 17/08/2012 23:33

ttosca addressing your responses from my post to flatpack was one of the least problematic points I have with your post!!! Perhaps it?s because I fail to see how a communist nirvana would help anyone at all - democratically elected or otherwise.

Can I clarify the following please.

  1. Are you saying that the economic policies of the late 70's were sustainable?
  2. Are you saying that tax should be punitive if you are in a well paid job?
  3. Do you think that raising taxation on business has little or no effect and that businesses do not pass on the cost of taxation to their customers, shareholders or employees?
  4. Are you suggesting that it is simpler, easier and more effective to tax corporations than it is to tax the income of individuals?
  5. Do you think that minimum wage legislation has no effect on the unemployment rates of the least skilled?
  6. Before the financial crisis, total government spending was hovering just below the 50% of GDP mark. Due to the contraction of GDP, that spending went up to around 50% of GDP. Where was the money hacked and slashed from?
Xenia · 18/08/2012 18:16

I can comfort the socialists on the thread. So many Governments come into power to get rid of red tape but they like power so much they never reduce the state,. Cameron has been pathetic at all this. Boris J would be much better. You have nothing tgo fear. Also a lot of our rules are set out in EU directives so unless we leave the EU which we won't we cannot change them anyway.

Lots of mumsnetters run small businesses and we know only too well what ridiculous rules there are. If I want to give someone in Saudi 30 minutes of advice by email I have to see physically their passport or have someone else verify it. That isd just one of huge numbers of petty stupid rules.

Some of us have employed nannies. I have had 2 off on maternity leave which is difficult but of course one follows the law. We then had two nanny tax investigations when not a single penny was unpaid. That is a huge burdne when you have a baby or three keeping you up all night, the second you get home the baby is dumped on you, you're breastfeeding, you have already paid tax and NI and then you pay it on the nanny wage and her NI and employer NI and then have HMRC investigating (this was a good few years ago).

I do not think this Govenrmetnt will reduce the 6 weeks at 90% pay women get. It could and should reduce state sector benefits down to the legal minimum. It xcould provide no sick pay (except SSP) for state workers for exam-ple which is great to stop skivers.

It is unlikely to abolish the minimum wage even though that is not imposed by the EU.

I relaly have no confidence at all that anything will be changed to reduce regulatory burdens. In fact they continue to introduce more and more

ttosca · 25/08/2012 16:33

Socialists can already take comfort from the public, who are becoming increasingly agitated at right-wing nutters, and Capitalist libertarians trying to rob the public of all the wealth and giving it to the top 1%.

The public will not tolerate society being turned in to some sort of anarcho-Capitalist barbarian society fantasized by spotty American 14 year-olds reading Ayn Rand fantasy novels under the covers at night.

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