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Politics

George Osborne is stupid or naive or a liar. Or all of the above.

88 replies

DashingRedhead · 10/04/2012 10:33

Apparently he's shocked at the tiny amount of tax paid by the richest in the country. Hmm

But I'm not. And he's Chancellor of the Exchequer. And I'm not.

OP posts:
AnxiousPanxious · 10/04/2012 10:34

I follow @DrunkGeorgeOsborne on Twitter. I recommend this as a way to lower your blood pressure. It's hard to see the man even as a normal human being now.

TheCrackFox · 10/04/2012 10:50

I think I will put him in the "lying" category.

LackaDAISYcal · 10/04/2012 10:51

I believe he is a liar who stupidly and naively thinks the electorate are convinced by his lies.

ABitSnowyOutside · 10/04/2012 10:53

I see him as

Whether he actually does anything to remedy his shockedness remains to be seen.

seb1 · 10/04/2012 11:03

OP, those descriptions are the people spec. for being a tory MP didn't you know that Shock Wink

ssd · 10/04/2012 11:05

he's trying to treat us all like 5 yr olds Angry

AnxiousPanxious · 10/04/2012 11:07

I read that he keeps out of the public eye as much as he can because he knows how badly he comes over. So he hides, rather than trying to come over better by being a better man who does better things. Says a lot.

ssd · 10/04/2012 11:22

he hides cos he cant look anyone in the eye

ttosca · 10/04/2012 12:27

lol! A Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer allegedly shocked by millionaires not paying their taxes...

I think Tories must be having a nervous breakdown and using comedy as some sort of coping mechanism or something.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/04/2012 12:33

At least he's bothering to look at sample tax returns and making the findings public. The previous lot presumably had the same information, didn't express surprise, didn't close down tax loopholes, didn't make anything public but were instead 'intensely relaxed' about people getting filthy rich.

UnChartered · 10/04/2012 12:35

twat

ttosca · 10/04/2012 12:41

It's not that he's bothering to look at anything, Cogito. He knows very well that the rich avoid paying tax because:

a) He's in charge of the tax regime

b) All his rich buddies having been avoiding tax all their lives

c) Tax avoidance by the rich (and corporations) has been a well-known problem in the public realm for decades now.

ttosca · 10/04/2012 12:43

Cogito-

didn't make anything public but were instead 'intensely relaxed' about people getting filthy rich.

That's 'staying' rich, rather than 'getting' rich, as social mobility is at a low point historically.

How do you think the Tory scum feel about the filthy rich staying rich? Do you think they object to this, while everybody else suffers austerity, or do you think they remain 'intensely relaxed' about it?

JosephineCD · 10/04/2012 12:56

In what country do people pay more tax than they have to?

Tax avoidance will exist as long as there is tax.

ICutMyFootOnOccamsRazor · 10/04/2012 13:05

I was certainly shocked when I read that headline. How stupid does he think people are?

Of course he's not shocked, surprised, upset, angry or any of these things. Practically every other adult in the UK knows full well that many people, especially the very well-off, avoid tax, so how could this fact possibly have passed the Chancellor by?

Oh, that's right. It couldn't.

sue52 · 10/04/2012 13:41

I'm going with liar, if he is that stupid or naive Dave would not have chosen him as Chancellor.

PigletJohn · 10/04/2012 15:02

"Rich people avoid paying tax shock"

No shock to anyone, FFS

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/04/2012 15:51

I don't regard myself as stupid and keep up with financial matters generally. I know,for example,that income from Capital Gains is taxed at 28% whereas PAYE income is 40% or 45% etc I know about things like claiming non-dom status and using tax havens. Nevertheless I was genuinely surprised that some can pay as low as 10% on a UK tax return. I'd love to know how that breaks down, where the money goes, what allowances are being claimed etc. The stamp-duty loophole was closed after the budget. It can't be that easy to close others or presumably it would already have been done.

MrsDeeBee · 10/04/2012 15:53

He is the epitome of all that is wrong with the Coalition Govt.

ttosca · 10/04/2012 17:32

Why is George Osborne surprised about tax avoidance? I warned of its scale in 2008

As I am on a train from Paris right now I?m only just catching up with this morning?s news about HMRC showing George Osbone 20 anonymised tax returns revealing that just 20 people in the UK have avoided £145 million of tax between them.

The story should not be news. I warned in 2008 that the scale of tax avoidance was far higher than HMRC calculated. This was in my report ?The Missing Billions? published by the TUC that year, in which I said there was at least £13 billion of personal ta avoidance in the UK and a further £8 billion of excess reliefs granted to very wealthy people. www.tuc.org.uk/touchstone/missingbillions/1missingbillions.pdf (apologies ? links are harder on the iPad).

I have always maintained, hard that such estimates are, this extrapolation of HMRC?s own data (much of it hardly updated since then) was a reasonable guide to what was really happening in the UK economy. HMRC always said otherwise ? vociferously, and rather personally, taking at face value the absurd observations of the libertarian right and, to some degree, the Oxford Centre for Business Taxation on such issues. This is reflected in their last estimate of tax avoidance. In that report, published last September, they said total tax avoidance by individuals of income tax, national insurance and capital gains tax combined was just £1.5 billion. www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/mtg-2011.pdf Now we can really see how ludicrous that estimate always was. HMRC knew all along that 20 people accounted for almost 10% of that sum.

I have long maintained ministers have not told the truth on this issue, and that HMRC have quite deliberately misinformed on this issue, both to ministers and the public. Now it is very clear that I was right about that. I don?t expect, and know I won?t get an apology. But what I do expect is action to tackle this issue at long last, and much greater honesty in future, plus a willingness on the part of HMRC to dismiss the very obvious and ludicrous claims of the economic far right which they have been far too willing to embrace.

If all Orsborne has done is issue an interview to support his cap on tax reliefs at £50,000 that?s not enough. That ignores altogether abuse via capital taxation. It also ignores the massive abuse possible via companies. Real change is needed. Having let the cat out of the bag that tax avoidance really is much higher than official estimates Osborne has to do three things.

The first is re-estimate the issue. I?d suggest that involves talking to the very few people who have been right about it to date, including me.

Second, definitions of abuse have to very clearly be redefined. The mantra, too readily accepted by HMRC ?that it?s legal so it?s acceptable? has to be confined to the bin.

Third, we have to have comprehensive action to tackle this abuse. Now. Nothing less will do.

Will he do those three things? Let?s wait and see. But don?t hold your breath.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2012/04/10/why-is-george-osborne-surprised-about-tax-avoidance-i-warned-of-its-scale-in-2008/

ttosca · 10/04/2012 17:32

Thanks for answering my question, Cogito.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/04/2012 17:38

You're welcome.

DashingRedhead · 10/04/2012 21:31

Thanks everyone - I love the mixture of flippancy and serious analysis.

OP posts:
LapOfTheGods · 10/04/2012 21:33

He's lying. It's PR!

meditrina · 10/04/2012 21:35

I suspect that he did not know much about how it was done, but was concerned enough to ask and then to publish what was found. Has any Chancellor actually done similar in the recent past? Because I bet these aren't new things only begun since the election.

What matters now is what he does with this information, now that he has evidence rather than generalised supposition.

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