Confused re attitude to benefits and work experience

[catontheroof]

Your thoughts please - why has it become so politically incorrect to suggest that fit adults in this country should be expected to work for a living?

I believe that we need a safety net but cannot understand why people should not have to take jobs that they are qualified for if those jobs exist. I also cannot understand why people "deserve" tax credits etc.

If large chunks of our population do not work then our GDP is low. The only way that we can afford to have so many on benefits with a relatively high standard of living is by importing goods from other countries where the workers live and work in atrocious conditions.

Why do we think that it is right and proper that people in this country sit around being paid not to work whilst tens of thousands all over the world work in sweat shops to provide them with a lifestyle?

If our fit population all worked then we'd increase GDP and have money to help people in other countries where there is real poverty.

hunty - If you start a job as a shelf-stacker today, you will still, in 99% of cases, be working as a shelf-stacker when you retire.

only if you stay in that job. & there might not be other jobs now but in 3 years the economy will be back up & running. time enough to get more qualifications etc.

According to OP we should hand over what we did buy when working, we have no right to own it. Job prospects look bleak and worsen every day as it is one day longer on the scrap heap for employers to look down their nose at.

How do you PAY FOR THOSE BLOODY QUALIFICATIONS THOUGH???

Tilly, I fear you just don't live in the real world. I so WANT to do an OU course. It costs over 1/3 of my TOTAL income that I need to feed my dc and keep them housed. As it would were I in employment. I JUST CAN'T AFFORD IT, regardless of whether I am in work or not.

Anything less than a degree level course is just tinkering at the edges, for my own amusement - because it just WON'T lead to a greater income, in my town. A town where a manager of a large supermarket only commands a wage of £25.2kpa. In my town IN the SE - that is classed as a wage that most could only DREAM of. And they are expecting a degree in Business management as a prerequisite of the job. So anyone without a degree is unlikely, in my town at least, where we have VERY high housing costs, and very high childcare costs, to earn much more than £17k MAXIMUM, in a SKILLED job, without a degree.

Try surviving on less than £11k before tax - that's what the lowest paid have to do. Then imagine that they still have to pay the same living costs as you. Without any top-ups from Tax Credits and Housing Benefit - it would be impossible.

yy @ hunty, and that's if you can do a job in a supermarket.
They are open from 8 until 8. And all weekend. Ditto call centres.
In many parts of the country retail and call centre work is all thats available. Single parents usually can't do shift work.
Obvs thats our fault for not being clever enough to keep a decent man, but it does make it much harder to find work that you can do within childcare hours.

The facts as I see it are thus:

Real jobs in real industries have been massively diminished, leaving service industry McJobs.

Wages are artificially low and businesses are being subsidised by the government, leaving millions of families dependent when they really don't want to be.

The majority of people on benefits are actually working-this is a fact, it's in the figures from HMRC.

Transport costs are soaring (seen the news this morning?) at the same time bus services are being slashed, making it harder and harder to even get to work.

The poorest and most struggling are having their lives made even harder to placate the misguided and gullible members of the electorate who seriously beleive that the deficit is caused by the welfare bill.

Actually Hunty, I disagree (although applaud everything else you've said so far).

My nephew left sixth form after a term as it wasn't for him. Got a job as a shelf stacker in sainsburys. He's a bright boy but just not enthused at school.

He's now a Deputy Store Manager. He worked really hard, always on time, always willing to stay late, staff and customers loved him - so the management gave him a chance and put him through the training.

My other nephew worked really hard a university, gained a good degree in a 'proper' subject and now can't get a job for love nor money.

The physical impossibility of actually doing certain jobs has hit me several times in the last few months.
I was offered a brilliant job in another town. If the bus there ran more than 3 times a day I would have been able to take it.
It's soul destroying.

hunty - if i wanted to save for qualifications i could not afford, i would post on moneysavingexpert & ask for advice about how to cut costs and see if there is any funding i could access.

and i would expect it to take years.

Hunty your post on page 14 of this thread has to be THE post of the MONTH.
Talking of childcare falling through, i remember a woman bringing her eleven year old daughter into the office where i worked ten years ago because her babysitter cancelled at short notice and she couldnt afford proffesional childcare.
Thing is it was a sex chatline office so really not an appropriate place for the child to be.
But her mum only had two choices.
Take the kid to work with her or lose a whole nights money and not be able to pay her rent.

going with the prevailing MN philosophy: is DP wasting his time encouraging the children in his school to be the best they can?

are the children wasting their time trying?

You are really scraping the barrel, Tilly. What the hell is the 'prevailing MN philosophy?' The lack of jobs is REAL, people struggling is REAL, not a philosophical stance.

I have a 15 yo DD and I encourage her to work hard. She is very aspirational and is doing well at school - predicted straight As in all her GCSEs. She has tried and failed to get a Saturday job. She has advertised her services for babysitting to no avail. I see the majority of her friends striving and working hard to achieve exam success.

Why are you continuing to equate joblessness with a lack of aspiration?

I really hope that my child isn't 'wasting her time' trying, but I AM a realist and the unemployment figures for young people are truly dreadul.

wooly - Why are you continuing to equate joblessness with a lack of aspiration?

i am not. i specifically said that previously.

I've always valued education, but looking where it got me I'm not sure any more. It is irrelevant if either dd is capable of going to university because we will never be able to send them. None of us have a future any more. Dh and I have lost their chance of a future in our 30s but dds have lost their chance of a future before it has really begun. Yet at the same time the inportance of education has been so drummed into me that I still encourage dd1 at school.. The only problem is it's harder to answer 'why mum?'

You have clearly expressed a belief that all it takes is 'hard work' and everything will come to you..

woolly errr my dad always worked hard then ended up completely paralysed. so no.

hecuba - None of us have a future any more

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

woolly but he still benefitted from his hard work. when he was fit & when not.

We certainly don't tilly unless you call dying of exposure in a cardboard box a future.

hecuba - you will not die in a cardboard box of exposure.

It's cold up here in winter. When you are evicted for non payment of rent you are on your own.. Not even a hostel.

Tilly, your post at 13: 42
can you tell me more about this please: "There's no point pretending to people that hard work is enough, because it isn't. Some people will work really hard to end up in exactly the same place they would have ended up if they hadn't worked so hard. "

i dont get it.

But now you've changed your mind?

Oh fuck it. I'm going now. This is just stpuid.

stupid...

no woolly. (sorry terrible speller) noone understood why i was asking what they meant

working hard wont stop you being made redundent. it wont stop you dying. but if you have 2 people, Person A always works harder than Person B, all other things being, equal Person A will always do better.

i dont just mean harder at their job, harder at qualifications etc. i am not saying shit doesnt happen - just thats not all there is.

woolly one of the reasons your DD cant get a Saturday job is because a lot of them are being filled by workfare.