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Politics

Workfare versus Work Experience

223 replies

rabbitstew · 22/02/2012 22:25

How important is prior work experience, normally, to a job as a shelf stacker? I would have thought that anyone taking that on via Workfare who then failed to get or take the job at the end of it would be ringing the death knell to any future employment as they would be assumed to have been too slack to even get that sort of work when offered to them on a plate. And I know that unpaid work experience is more or less compulsory to anyone hoping to get into publishing, for example, but I'm sure that nobody would get to keep their benefits if they got themselves a bit of that sort of work experience.

So, basically, I'm a bit unclear as to whom Workfare is supposed to really benefit, apart from those people who wanted jobs in Tesco in the first place, but who now find they can't access them unless they are on a Workfare scheme?????

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rabbitstew · 25/02/2012 12:55

Can we sit on her, then?

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ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:04

The Government's Workfare Schemes: 10 Facts

PIL acts for a number of individuals, including Cait Reilly, who are challenging the Government?s ?Back to Work? schemes in the High Court. Intensive press coverage and the Government?s attempts to salvage this programme from its current crisis have led to a skewing of the facts. The following may therefore be helpful.

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  1. Our clients do not object to work or to work experience. Cait Reilly was doing voluntary work experience in a museum when she was sent to Poundland. Our clients, like the vast majority of jobseekers, are desperate to find paid work of any description, including stacking shelves. The term ?job snobs? is therefore a misleading and offensive buzz word being used by the Government to discredit Britain?s 2.6 million unemployed. What our clients say they need is support from the Government to make the most of their skills and plug their skills gaps, in order to ensure that they not only enter the job market, but stay there.
  1. The Government is not ?paying them... through benefits? to work, as the Deputy Prime Minister has claimed today. Jobseekers allowance ranges from £53.45 to £67.50 per week. It is paid for one specific (and obvious) purpose ? to support people whilst they seek employment. It is not remuneration for work, and even if it were it would mean that people on Back to Work schemes would be getting paid as little as £1.78 per hour, often whilst working for some of our biggest retailers. Many of those retailers are now realising that such a scenario is unacceptable and have either pulled out of the schemes or demanded that the Government thinks again.
  1. People are not being given a choice. Ministers claim that work under these schemes is not forced but voluntary. This is not correct. The Community Action Programme, Work Programme and Mandatory Work Activity Scheme (the clue is in the name) are mandatory, and jobseekers will lose their jobseeker?s allowance if they do not participate. The Government says the sector-based work academy and work experience schemes are voluntarily, but Cait Reilly was told in no uncertain terms that her participation was ?mandatory?.
  1. The schemes do not work. Ministers claim the schemes help people into employment. Yet, the international research the Government commissioned before introducing them gave it two very clear answers:

?There is little evidence that workfare increases the likelihood of finding work. It can even reduce employment chances by limiting the time available for job search and by failing to provide the skills and experience valued by employers?; and

?Workfare is least effective in getting people into jobs in weak labour markets where unemployment is high.?

  1. The schemes do not target benefits scroungers or ?the something for nothing generation?: the Government?s internal guidance makes clear that such people who are taking advantage of the system are not eligible for the schemes. They must receive the appropriate sanction of removal of their jobseeker?s allowance as they are not ?jobseeking?.
  1. These legal challenges are not simply about ?human rights?. What our clients object to is 1) the forced or compulsory nature of the work required, and 2) that Parliament has been by-passed by the Government in creating these schemes. They argue that this breaches basic democratic and legal requirements.
  1. The Government schemes do not amount to slave labour, as some campaigners have suggested. The ILO?s Forced Labour Convention of 1930 defines slavery as connoting ?ownership? over an individual. What our clients are arguing is that the Government schemes are ?forced or compulsory? labour. This too is prohibited under UK civil and criminal law.
  1. These schemes are not all aimed at the long-term unemployed. For example, the sector-based work academy can apply to any jobseeker, even if he or she has only been unemployed for one day.
  1. Press attention has focused on the sector-based work academy, but that is only one of a plethora of complex schemes, many of which are much worse. The sector-based work academy involves 6-8 weeks of unpaid work. Other schemes involve six months, and there appears to be nothing to stop those six-month periods from being renewed. One of our clients was told that his Community Action Programme placement would last six months ?to begin with?.
  1. The Government?s sums do not add up. The Employment Minister has stated that ?half? or ?something like half? of those on work experience have received permanent jobs. He has not advanced any evidence to support this, and Tesco has offered only 300 jobs having taken on 1400 unpaid workers.

www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/news_details.php?id=231Excellent

edam · 25/02/2012 13:15

Thanks, ttosca, that's very interesting.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:16

EdithWeston linked to something on another thread by the ex-Labour minister, James Purcell.

Did anyone challenge those policies at the time?

Here is an extract. Some of it sounds pretty similar.

"Over the past 10 years, we have become much more ambitious about who we believe can work. Ten years ago, helping people on incapacity benefit into work might have been thought dangerous for their health. Today, the evidence shows that helping and supporting people into work is often the best way to improve their health. Ten years ago, people were wary about requiring single parents to look for work. Today, we know that it would improve their life chances and lift 70,000 children out of poverty.

That?s why, this October, we are replacing incapacity benefit with the Employment and Support Allowance. The new allowance will remove the perverse financial incentives of incapacity benefit and refocus the capability assessment on what the claimant can do, rather than what they cannot. And it?s also why we will be expecting single parents to look for work when their youngest child is seven, rather than 16, bringing us more into line with other industrialised countries.

The employment and support allowance will apply to new claimants first, but over time we will transfer everyone on incapacity benefit to the Employment and Support Allowance. These new expectations will mean we work towards our aspiration of 80 per cent employment ? the highest of any major industrialised country.

This is all based on the fact that we want to focus on what people can do, not on what they can?t, which brings me to my third principle ? contribution. Welfare is a mutual bond ? a relationship in which the citizen is expected to contribute. In return, the state will guarantee protection should they need it.

To take this principle of contribution further, I have asked the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Lesley Strathie, to lead a review of benefit conditionality. It will include the sanctions applied to customers ?playing the system?, and how we might best use advisers? discretion in tailoring services to meet people?s needs.

We do expect everyone who is long-term unemployed, claiming job seeker?s allowance and participating in flexible New Deal to take active steps to return to work, which will include undertaking work-related activity in return for their dole. Jobseekers who join the flexible New Deal will be expected to do at least four weeks of full-time work or work-related activity unless they find a job within 12 months.

We are streamlining the various New Deals into a single, flexible New Deal to be delivered by private and voluntary sector organisations. We will reward them on what they achieve, precisely so we can free them to be more flexible and work out how to achieve those results. This is a crucial point ? a personalised regime for everyone. That?s because the evidence suggests such programmes only work when they are adapted to an individual?s needs.

These policies will help those who need support. But there is a small group who refuse to take up the opportunities available. For them, beyond the Flexible New Deal, we will be looking at how we can develop a strict sanctions regime, including either cuts in benefits or an option of permanent work for their benefits.

I think with these proposals we respect both sides of the welfare contract. Those who cannot find work would feel a sense of contribution. Those who don?t want to work would have to.

My main point is a simple one: whenever in future I set out what we will do, you can refer to these three principles ? control, capability and contribution ? to understand why. This is how I think we should understand the modern welfare state."

network.civilservicelive.com/pg/pages/view/261574/oneway-street-to-workfare

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:19

Defending your team again, Claig?

That's the New Deal scheme, something apart from JSA.

New Labour's scheme was voluntary, and you couldn't be forced to work for a profit making company, AFAIK.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:23

'But there is a small group who refuse to take up the opportunities available. For them, beyond the Flexible New Deal, we will be looking at how we can develop a strict sanctions regime, including either cuts in benefits or an option of permanent work for their benefits.'

The title of the article is "one-way street to workfare". That suggests there is no going back in the opposite direction, it's one-way or the highway.

I think the current policy is wrong and I think the one-way is wrong too. I am interested if anyone else thought the one-way was wrong then too.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:26

'Defending your team again, Claig?'

No need to defend them. They are in the capable hands of Andre Villas-Boas.

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:26

'But there is a small group who refuse to take up the opportunities available. For them, beyond the Flexible New Deal, we will be looking at how we can develop a strict sanctions regime, including either cuts in benefits or an option of permanent work for their benefits.'

Great, but you haven't provided any details. Is this for the voluntary sector or for a private company? How many hours will they be expected to work?

I think the current policy is wrong and I think the one-way is wrong too. I am interested if anyone else thought the one-way was wrong then too.

You're interested because you're always playing team sports. If New Labour had enacted a similar scheme to this one, there would have been protests too.

It's not like there was any shortage of protest in the streets during the Blair years.

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:27

I told you more people would start opposing the Tories once their vile sociopathic tendencies became more apparent...

claig · 25/02/2012 13:30

'Is this for the voluntary sector or for a private company? How many hours will they be expected to work?'

I don't know. I'm not an expert on New Labour policy like you. That's why I asked the question, did anyone object to those policies at the time or did everyone think they were hunkydory?

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:33

Try reading my post above instead of simply repeating your question.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:39

'It's not like there was any shortage of protest in the streets during the Blair years.'

Did you protest the workfare policies then?

Why is it called workfare? Is it a corruption of welfare? Does it imply that you have to work for your fare, to work to be entitled to welfare? Does it mean that welfare is no longer your right, paid for out of your national insurance? Does it mean that you may face sanctions or cuts in benefits that you have contributed towards through national insurance and that you may have to permanently work to receive your welfare?

Did you protest this at the time?

'we will be looking at how we can develop a strict sanctions regime, including either cuts in benefits or an option of permanent work for their benefits'

claig · 25/02/2012 13:41

''we will be looking at how we can develop a strict sanctions regime'

While they were looking, were you looking the other way?

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:41

Derailing the conversation isn't going to work, Claig. Nice try, though.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:52

I've said I think it is wrong. Nearly everyone you see on TV seems to think the policy is OK, and even Labour don't seem to be opposing it strongly. Even MNHQ see the positive side. I think the whole system in on side. I think Purcell's article shows that.

But I think that handfuls of teenage Socialist Worker protestors with homemade banners may possibly have derailed the entire 'one-way to workfare' by rasing the issue to public consciousness.

EdithWeston · 25/02/2012 13:53

Nor, ttosca is denial of what Labour did going to work:

  • they were proposing that the workfare be permanent (not just a few weeks) and compulsory and did not rule out the private sector. Straight from the mouth of Purnell.

The permanency of the Labour proposals is a layer of nastiness beyond the (Labour look-alike) policies currently being frothed about.

claig · 25/02/2012 13:54

It is quite extraordinary and looks to me like the 'one-way' planners have blundered and the path may have to become a dual carriageway.

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:56

lol! Socialist Workers...

You really do believe everything you read in the Daily Hatred, don't you?

ttosca · 25/02/2012 13:59

Edith-

Please provide a link.

Secondly, I'm quite sure that if they had enacted such legislation, there would be been equally as vociferous protests against the scheme. As far as I know, it was never enacted.

Presumably, you find this scheme as vile as most people. Will you be protesting against it?

claig · 25/02/2012 14:00

By 'socialist workers', I mean left wing activists and that is not derogatory. It is a democracy and everyone has the right to protest.

Tortington · 25/02/2012 14:06

unfortunaltey mainstream media have portrayed socialists as grung commy student types

hence the popularity of the occupy tag.

its inclusive - we;re all getting fucked - join in the protest

claig · 25/02/2012 14:08

I think that crass insults like 'job snobs' etc. are self-defeating and won't convince the public.

It looks like these protestors may end up being more successful in their protest than Miliband, New Labour and the unions combined. It is amazing.

claig · 25/02/2012 14:11

'unfortunaltey mainstream media have portrayed socialists as grung commy student types;

Yes, that will not work. The protestors are not 'job snobs', some were probably laid off from poorly paid jobs already.

EdithWeston · 25/02/2012 14:14

I thought I'd put it on this one: but scrolling up I see I did it on another.

The link has been copied by another poster (@13:16:38 today). If you google for Purnell's public statements in 2008/2009 you'll find abundant similar.

There is collective amnesia on the Labour version; but that they were the ones who are responsible for introducing the principle, and that they were working on conditions somewhat harsher than current proposals, does at least provide an explanation (other than ineptitude) for the muted to non-existent opposition to this.

rabbitstew · 25/02/2012 14:16

How can you possibly be a "job snob" to object to downgrading a perfectly respectable job from paid status to unpaid status?

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