Amazon.co.uk pay ZERO tax in the UK. Why are people more annoyed about the bloke down the road maybe getting a benefit that he shouldn't than that. I don't understand.

[Pagwatch]

Seriously. This weasel on radio 5 this morning just kept saying 'we pay all relevant taxes for the region' but wouldn't answer when Andrew Verity pressed 'yes, but that means tat you pay no tax in the ZuK because you have chosen to place Amazon.co.uk registered head office in Luxemborg.

If everyone phoned their mp about corporate tax evasion rather than mrs smiggins who is getting DLA when she looks fine we could pay off the deficit.

Hooray!

No. Seriously. Why don't we care about this?

Well luckily the government aren't the moral police, yellowraincoat!

It's an interesting question but perhaps the wrong one. Another tangent of the country wide blamestorming that has been going on this week (sorry Pag).

You don't assume Mumsnet is based internationally because they have a .com address do you?

Taxation in this country is a vast sprawling beast which has been left to fester and which is enforced by people who I would not trust to organise a birthday cake for Mr Kipling frankly. Enforcement is also stymied by the pressure of legal costs, understaffing and brain drain at the heart of revenue protection, it's not a job for life anymore and people don't care too much about it.

Commercial success within a country is generally helpful to that country. Look at China. Lots of stuff being produced and shipped over here. There's not a heck of a lot of tax paid there either as I understand it. Yet they are thriving on it. It's just a different model of collection.

Perhaps the solution is more regulation ---- oh wait, we can't cope with the regulation we DO have and businesses complain they cannot operate within the rules in any case.

I was an FD, I've sat up for hours trying to understand - with the help of accountants, what I need to pay, why and how? But quite honestly there are so many rules that without paying someone a lot you will not get away with evasion or avoidance. But if you are paying £5m in tax and can hire a tax avoidance specialist for £1m, most people will do it. People don't get and stay rich by being dumb.

Ethically you can justify it - I create 100 jobs, ergo I'm entitled to hire one more person to drive down my tax costs.

China isn't thriving.

HMRC had 25% of its staff cut. Which I think shows how much of a shit the governments we employ give about bringing money into public coffers.

Addicted to Tax Havens - nice little read.

as others have said, just because it's got a .uk address doesn't mean it's a "UK" company. Muchlike MN having .com at the end doesn't mean MN has to pay tax to the US government (I bet they're super relieved about that). I have had stuff from Amazon shipped from Luxembourg, so it's not just their registered HQ but they do have warehouses there, which would make sense that they sell products in France, Germany, etc. as well as the UK.

Ryanair apparently tried to convince the French government that as an Irish company their employees didn't have to pay French income tax. The French government cancelled their slots from at least one of their airports and told them to get knotted.

This is the UK:

On welfare for its people: Cut! cut! cut! -starving/freezing/homeless? -"But think of the deficit! Won't somebody think of the deficit!"

On taxing the rich to clear the deficit: " lovely chap, we had lunch last thurday. Dont worry about that pesky tax, and help yourself to our lovely services and our well educated people. Wages? Dont worry about that, in fact we'll pay YOU.

WTF?

Yep, Chicken.

Hello,

Just to let you know, we've moved this one to Politics.

Yes, Politics is a much better place for it. Wasn't it you Pagwatch Which who asked for all the benefits threads to be in one place?

Shame that an interesting topic had to be compared to the well-trod subject of people moaning about others getting benefits.

As others have said, Amazon aren't doing anything illegal and 'based in the UK' has different meanings in law. A physical base does not mean they are legally based here.

I don't know why people complain about benefits and not about this. I can assume though it's because (a) they know the Amazon situation is legal whereas they are unsure - whether justifiably or not - that their neighbour is entitled to their blue badge; (b) it is easier to relate to things that are in their own yard and are only a few steps removed from their own situation; or (c) they don't know about it in the first place, as it is not widely known.

It's legal because of EU legal obligations on tax, and the elimination of dual taxation within EU. I suppose we could try to renegotiate, but I think we'd be on a road to nowhere. There is no loophole here within the unilateral power of the UK Government.

Ok (sorry if someone else has mentioned this) what about this scenario.

Your family home is still lived in by your parents. Nice place worth a bit of money that would make a good deal of change to yours and your childrens lives.

They are concerned about the implications of inheritance tax and take legal advice. There is very simple, legal ways of reducing the exposure of their children to this tax.

They worked hard and want their children to benefit from the property in the event of their death. Would you advice them against it? It is tax avoidance, but you could lose a substantial amount of money - that your parents want you to have. Can you honestly say you would say no?

Is moving threads the new censorship?

I don't think it should have been moved , Chicken

Good point Henwelly.

I know I would be happy for my parents to do this, in fact my step dads father died recently, and he was able to prevent my step dad having to pay inheritance tax. I fully intend to do the same for my children.

having spent this morning trying to get the Jeff in contact with Amazons accounts, in order to get them to PAY MY CLIENT who has been supplying them for 6 months without their crappy system paying him...

i am quite happy to rant about Amazon. vendor Jeffing portal FFS.

they did however issue a profit warning this morning, they are not perfectly rated.....they do enable plenty of small UK (and other european) businesses to sell to customers they wouldn't otherwise have. My client pays tax on his profit in the Uk, if you buy his stuff from their website.

whenever corporate tax comes up: i will always argue it is best for the UKs rate to be set at a level that keeps companies based here. That's better for the treasury. some companies can pick and choose: Amazon is one of them.

'Is moving threads the new censorship?'

you cynic, ChickenLickn.

I can't remember any other threads having been moved to Politics apart from these benefit ones. It seems that less people will find these threads buried within Politics as opposed to being in AIBU.

benefit thread are now moved to politics.
it is lovely

ChickenLickn Wed 01-Feb-12 21:59:44
Is moving threads the new censorship?

I agree. I will never purposely post in the politics section if I can avoid it because it always turns into a bunfight. Unlike AIBU which is of course full of flowers, cogent argument and pixie dust

Amazon's profit warning is likely in response to the eye-watering numbers of kindles they sold at Xmas - each and every one being a physical loss-maker. The profits will be clawed back via the sales of ebooks.

But yes, it fucks me off that Vodafone paid less in tax in LU last year than I paid in tax last month (not in Lu).

Yes, yes -it was ne who asked for benefits threads to be moved to politics.
But that means I have this hidden now

To be honest I was just fucked off with the smary Amazon man than anything else so I wasn't really thinking about where I posted it. But politics is probably better.

Henwelly. I see your point but that is an individual. My irritation is with massive companies using highly paid accountants and it being accepted as a fact of life.

Is the concebsus then that DH should just hire someone to do this? He could probably shift the holding company to Bermuda/Jersey as he trades internationally - certainly I would enjoy helping him at board meetings. Why do we just shrug at this stuff?

Yeah total bastards.

How DARE a company based in Luxemburg not pay UK taxes!

How DARE they sell stuff to us in the UK just because that's the whole damn point of the European Union & single market?

How DARE they employ people in the UK who can now pay NI, income tax whom otherwise wouldn't have a job and claim benefits?

Oh and let's neatly ignore the fact they collect VAT on all the stuff they sell which goes to the treasury, just so we can get all indignant over the fact they don't pay corporation tax.

Next target. Why does Air France not pay UK taxes? The tax dodging bastards.

I'm annoyed by both. Not everything is black and white. I think big business should be regulated and taxed much more stringently. But I also think the welfare state needs serious reform and I support the cap. We need to address the issues at both ends of the spectrum.

Blimey. You sound really stressed niceguy2.
Have a sit down. It's only a conversation.

And Bermuda is really nice. Perhaps I will just go with the whole 'who cares' notion.

Let's go after Air France! They have a UK part of their website, theiving bastards.

Unfortunately, corporation tax, who pays where and what not is not simple. The UK has a very unattractive corporate tax regime, which means that companies would think twice before setting up business here. What you want to do, to encourage companies to set up business in a country, and therefore provide jobs, pay tax (e.g. VAT, corporation tax etc.) is have a favourable tax regime, in amongst other things. there was an article on the BBC recently about why the US has more entrepreneurs than the UK, and one of the reasons is the unfavourable tax regime, across all levels, but in particular for start ups.