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Politics

I never thought I'd say this but...Ken Livingstone for PM!

82 replies

breadandbutterfly · 13/12/2011 22:34

I've never liked Ken much on a personal level, BUT Ken will win the London election by a landslide, thanks to this policy:

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/13/ken-livingstone-tackle-london-rent

At last, at bloody last - a politician who recognises the massive importance to an increasing number of voters of affordable, reasonable quality housing for those forced to rent currently at the mercy of greedy landlords and unscrupulous lettings agencies.

How long till the rest of his party, let alone the others, catch up??

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breadandbutterfly · 20/12/2011 10:12

The World Bank - totally unbiased source. Hmm

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breadandbutterfly · 20/12/2011 10:12

aka They would say that wouldn't they.

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Disputandum · 20/12/2011 13:26

It's quite hard to find anyone serious who does think rent controls work.

It's not often that economists agree

I think we'd have to see more specifics from Ken really.

youngermother1 · 20/12/2011 13:47

Sorry, fail to understand why World Bank is biased? In which way and why?

breadandbutterfly · 20/12/2011 21:28

How young did you say yo were, youngermother1? Shock

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breadandbutterfly · 20/12/2011 21:57

Disputandem - "It's quite hard to find anyone serious who does think rent controls work".

It really depends what you mean by 'work'. If you mean 'help establish a growing and thriving private rented sector', then clearly capping the amount of profit a landlord can make by (outrageously) reducing rents to levels where tenants can actually afford to do unnecessary things like eat etc will hinder this - if you think, as I do, that what matters is that people have access to affordable accomodation, it will undeniably work. Higher and uncapped rents encourage people to buy property not as a home but to rent out, thus reducing the amount of stock available to buy and in turn putting up the cost of housing to buy due to increased demand. Capping rents may indeed reduce the stock of available housing to rent; but will in turn drive out the get-rich-quick landlords and increase the amount of property available to buy. Hence reducing property prices (great for would-be buyers) and driving out rogue landlords. Which, from the point of view of tenants, is definitely a situation that 'works'.

Whilst would-be get-rich-quick laandlords would undeniably think that rent controls were bad news, I don't think that is sufficient argument. Your economists (well, 76% of them) agreed back in 1990, when housing prices were far lower globally, and the effects of high housing prices and the resulting collapse in the world economic order had not yet been anticipated. I'd be very surprised if even as unrepresentative sample as that given in 1990 would claim anything of the sort today. Though given the average intelligence of economists, that is not a given. Wink

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youngermother1 · 20/12/2011 22:09

what has my age got to do with it?

youngermother1 · 20/12/2011 22:20

If you don't like the world bank, try this - econjwatch.org/articles/rent-control-do-economists-agree - an analysis of economic literature which concludes - ?the economics profession has reached a rare consensus: Rent control creates many more problems than it solves

becstarsky · 20/12/2011 22:37

Well, I don't know whether it will work but compared to the quote from Boris' spokesman, Ken's approach gets my vote. At least he is talking about spiralling rents being a bad thing that keeps the working poor struggling, rather than a good thing that makes landlords and builders rich.

Our huge rent payment makes it pretty much impossible for us to save towards a deposit to buy our own place - the 'haves' are getting richer so quickly with house price rises, but those who just about make the rent each month are kept in our proper place, unable to move upwards. It is also the reason that homelessness happens so frequently and suddenly in London - at the shelter DH and I occasionally help at we hear the stories a lot. So many Londoners are scraping around to find the rent at the end of the month because it represents 50% of our income. If something happens to that income, even a reduction for a few weeks, we are very screwed very fast. It's all very well to say 'move up North then'. I moved here from the North. It's not all beer and skittles up there either Grin And anyway, I love this city. It's my home. If I left London I'd leave my heart behind. (Not to mention my job.)

Disputandum · 21/12/2011 10:59

B&B - I definitely understand that you think that rent controls are the way to go, but am struggling to find any serious evidence to support you...would be genuinely interested if you can find any?

I'm also interested in your opinion on the World Bank.

There is definitely a case to be made for improving the rental market, but I haven't read anything yet that convinces me that rent controls will do it - good in the short term (maybe) but dire long term consequences.

breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 18:53

As I said, disputandem, I think you're asking me to prove something pointless - ie the effects of rent control ON THE RENTAL MARKET IN ISOLATION. The fact is that the rental market does not operate in isolation - it operates as part of the housing market. Hypotheses about the rental market which ignore the wider housing market are not worth the paper they are written on. Tenants are not a distinct group, destined to be tenants forever, and choosing this status by choice, or due to a mark on their forehead Hmm - tenants are players in the housing market as a whole, and if bad landlords sell up en masse due to lowered rents, will benefit from the reduction in house prices due to the increase in supply, and will, in many cases, become home-owners (a situation I suspect most tenants, though not all, would prefer).

I do not see an increase in the rental market as remotely desirable, unlike said economists - and I suspect most tenants feel the same.

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breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 18:58

Re the World Bank, here is Wikipedia (apologies for lazy source):

"Lending to service third world debt marked the period of 1980?1989. Structural adjustment policies aimed at streamlining the economies of developing nations were also a large part of World Bank policy during this period. UNICEF reported in the late 1980s that the structural adjustment programs of the World Bank were responsible for the "reduced health, nutritional and educational levels for tens of millions of children in Asia, Latin America, and Africa".[14]

... The World Bank has long been criticized by non-governmental organizations, such as the indigenous rights group Survival International, and academics, including its former Chief Economist Joseph Stiglitz who is equally critical of the International Monetary Fund, the US Treasury Department, US and other developed country trade negotiators.[29] Critics argue that the so-called free market reform policies which the Bank advocates are often harmful to economic development if implemented badly, too quickly ("shock therapy"), in the wrong sequence or in weak, uncompetitive economies.[29][30]

... A number of intellectuals in developing countries have argued that the World Bank is deeply implicated in contemporary modes of donor and NGO imperialism, and that its intellectual contributions function to blame the poor for their condition.[31]

One of the strongest criticisms of the World Bank has been the way in which it is governed. While the World Bank represents 186 countries, it is run by a small number of economically powerful countries. These countries choose the leadership and senior management of the World Bank, and so their interests dominate the bank.[32]

The World Bank has dual roles that are contradictory: that of a political organization and that of a practical organization. As a political organization, the World Bank must meet the demands of donor and borrowing governments, private capital markets, and other international organizations. As an action-oriented organization, it must be neutral, specializing in development aid, technical assistance, and loans. The World Bank's obligations to donor countries and private capital markets have caused it to adopt policies which dictate that poverty is best alleviated by the implementation of "market" policies.[33]

In the 1990s, the World Bank and the IMF forged the Washington Consensus, policies which included deregulation and liberalization of markets, privatization and the downscaling of government. Though the Washington Consensus was conceived as a policy that would best promote development, it was criticized for ignoring equity, employment and how reforms like privatization were carried out. Many now agree[citation needed] that the Washington Consensus placed too much emphasis on the growth of GDP, and not enough on the permanence of growth or on whether growth contributed to better living standards.[34]

Some analysis shows that the World Bank has increased poverty and been detrimental to the environment, public health and cultural diversity.[35] Some critics also claim that the World Bank has consistently pushed a neoliberal agenda, imposing policies on developing countries which have been damaging, destructive and anti-developmental.[36][37]

... It has also been suggested that the World Bank is an instrument for the promotion of US or Western interests in certain regions of the world.

... In 2008, a World Bank report which found that biofuels had driven food prices up 75% was not published. Officials confided that they believed it was suppressed to avoid embarrassing the then-President of the United States, George W. Bush.[46]

Enough for you?

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breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 19:02

youngermother - i was rather surprised that in your wide reading you had not come across criticisms of the World Bank - it is far from a neutral source. Hence the reference to your age (and your username, obviously).

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RobynLou · 21/12/2011 19:09

I will vote for ken, for many reasons. The changes for the better that he made to the transport in london were huge. I trust him to do all he can to make ordinary people's lives better.

youngermother1 · 21/12/2011 19:16

Agree people criticise the world bank, dosen't necessarily make it biased, the critics quoted above are mainly charities and NGO's who have their own axes to grind. No-one is completely impartial - your lift above is actually from the criticism part of the entry, not the whole thing.
All my reading on rent controls is that, in the longer term, it hurts the poor and renters more than it helps, ergo a bad policy.

breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 19:25

As I said above, youngermother, it only hurts "renters" by reducing rental supply. It does not reduce housing supply - unless you're suggesting that peeved landlords knock their houses down rather than sell them on. The problem with your argument is that there is no group of "renters" - there are many, many people who rent currently, but if the properties they rent were sold, en masse, would take the opportunity to buy them instead. The only thing preventing them buying homes to live in now are the large number of grasping BTL landlords; once they are forced out of the market by cuts in rent, then ordinary people can afford to buy again. At least in the meantime, with lower rents, tenants can afford to save a deposit - an additional benefit. Though obviously not one that will lead to a "successful" rental market in the long term.

You have to remember, the definitions of success in the rental market put forward by your beloved economists is not that of ordinary people trying to find a secure home to live in, it is from the point of view of landlords who view it as an investment, and tenants as a separate and permanent "class" - which they are not either.

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Disputandum · 21/12/2011 19:26

"Tenants...will benefit from the reduction in house prices due to the increase in supply."

This may be your opinion and hope but the research, evidence and experience points to the contrary. Indeed, rent controls serve generally to hurt tenants and particularly the poor; this is why most of the world has moved away from rent controls over the past 20 years or so.

Disputandum · 21/12/2011 19:29

And the research collated by Econ Journal Watch does actually primarily look at the impact on the tenants rather than the landlords, or the economy as a whole, from what I have read.

Disputandum · 21/12/2011 19:38

And here's the wiki link for anyone who is interested in what the World Bank does, cons and pros.

breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 19:42

Disputandem - have you read ANY of my previous posts?

Please reread and when you've grasped them, then reply - i specifically did not talk just about tenants, but about people who currently rent - there is a subtle but crucial difference.

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breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 19:44

PS You may think Mumsnet readers are not terribly bright, but i suspect most of us can google World Bank to read the whole entry. I was trying to draw your attention to the critiques of the WB, in answer to your question, rather than everything on the topic.

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Disputandum · 21/12/2011 19:49

I've read all of them, but they don't always make sense and appear to willfully ignore the facts in favour of closely held beliefs.

When you start sighing and arguing semantics it's probably time to draw a line under it.

If you can post a link to some research that supports rent controls, or to some evidence that it has had a positive impact on the housing market, then that would be useful.

Disputandum · 21/12/2011 19:52

And in order to consider whether the World Bank's research into rent control is of value one would have to consider their remit, role and responsibilities in full I think, not just trot out everything they've ever been criticised for (most of which has bugger all to do with the OP).

breadandbutterfly · 21/12/2011 20:05

No, disputandem - arguing that my posts don't make sense reflects the fact that you can't understand them (or don't wish to, possibly because, in your words, of your "closely held beliefs")?

Is it really so difficult to comprehend that the rental market is merely a subset of the housing market, and that what "harms" ie reduces the rental market "benefits" the housing market by reducing house prices (NOT rental prices, something you appear to have confused).

I challenge you to find an economist, however, who thinks that reducing house prices is a Good Thing. Economists, ingeneral, reflect the views and priorities of those that pay their wages - which is not the ordinary renter or would-be FTB, funnily enough.

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Disputandum · 21/12/2011 20:12

Just link to some convincing research, then we can stop squabbling and debate properly.

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