Iknow I'm being really naive, but why can't the banks just keep their interest rates lower for Italy etc rather than escalating the problem.

[justcross]

Why is no-one asking this question? i realise I'm probably being very simplistic and there's bound to be an extremely complicated reason!

I think I have discovered claig's identity;

Next time remember to get the thing about eating ants in!

Nope, it's not me

Never heard of him, and not very convincing.
He had a go at the Coalition, so is way off target.

He never mentioned "eating ants" and "saving the planet", so he is not very clued up.

Well you killed that thread Claig.

No, I answered the question

'why can't the banks just keep their interest rates lower for Italy etc rather than escalating the problem'

because that would lessen the need for 'reforms'.

On Newsnight, Paxman says

"the danger here surely is that the extremes capitalise when there is no obviously legitimate democratic government in a country"

The Professor says that the policies and measures introduced by so-called technocrats were manifestly wrong.

The Editor of the Economist also agrees that it plays to the extremes and implies that there is a possible danger of this in Germany.

But, Cogito, why don't you just carry on posting about how good the Big Society is, while welfare is being cut and austerity is being imposed on people across Europe, with policies that the Professor says are "mainfestly wrong"?

You're not answer any questions, you're just spouting a monologue.

Cogito, I never spout.
I believe in dialogue. I am not a Big Society and Coalition ideologue.

So all that where you post something... post again... post again.... and are only having a one-sided conversation with yourself is what if it's not a monologue? A 'dialogue' involves more than one person.

No I was answering Robot's post. New ideas on the issues came to mind and I thought it was interesting to look at Newsnight's discussion of the technocrats implementing the economic and austerity changes and the implications for democracy. I didn't think of all the points in one go because my mind is not made up like yours - I am not a Tory party ideologue.

I forgot that your idea of a dialogue is to accuse posters of "spouting" unless they are cheerleading for the Coalition.

Claig - I read this and thought of you...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8882029/Lord-Heseltine-We-should-still-ditch-the-pound.html especially the bit about global govts.

Great article, scaryteacher. It's unbelievable isn't it, after all that has happened with the Euro, Heseltine still believes we should be in it? He is quoted as saying:

?The nation state is in decline everywhere ? superseded by supra-national structures and blocs.

?We have unleashed forces that nation states simply can not regulate. That is why we need not just political union within Europe ? but, yes, ultimately, some kind of global governance. The Chinese know this; I know this. Believe me, it is the future.?

I believe him. I believe that is what the elite and the technocrats want.

That is why democracy is so important. Because a millionaire like Heseltine only has one vote just like Mrs Jones of Number 42. The same for a billionaire.

The technocrats can't just dictate policy, there is a pesky thing called democracy and elections and people like Mrs Duffy of Rochdale actually count.

We are commemorating people who died fighting for our democracy, for the people not to be dictated to by an elite technocracy.

Heseltine says:
'That is why we need not just political union within Europe ? but, yes, ultimately, some kind of global governance.'

And good old 'global warming' is just one of the bricks in the wall of 'global governance', which will spell the end for local and national democracy and sovereignty.

Then Pink Floyd's song will come true
"all in all you're just another brick in the wall"

Channel 4 News is reporting on the German reluctance to let the ECB print trillions of euros. The Germans fear hyperinflation.

Do some of the elite actually want the people to suffer hyperinflation?
Could that be just another brick in the wall speeding up the move to global governance?

Who are the elite, exactly? Are we talking the Bilderberg group here or ten-foot tall lizards?

There is a new grouping in Europe called the Frankfurt Group - this is in effect the new elite.

This is made up of the Chancellor of Germany, the President of France, the Head of IMF, the EU President, the ECB President, the President of EU Commission and the Head of the Eurozone Group.

Read about it an excellent short article by Fraser Nelson.

In summary, his artilce says that this group met after the G20 meeting and effectively agreed to depose Silvio Berlusconni and George Papandreou. Within 10 days both will be gone and EU technocrats imposed as the new Prime Ministers of Italy and Greece without any election taking place. Democracy has been usurped in two major economies of the EU this week - almost without anyone noticing.

In effect an unelected body called The Frankfurt Group is now making key political and financial decisions and unaccountable to any voter. Problem is that Italian and Greek voters may well revolt against having a Govt imposed by outsiders. This could end very badly indeed.

Once democracy is overthrown only dictatorship follows.

Bilderberg Group aren't the elite. They are just fonctionnaires. Denis Healey is a founder member of the Bildergroup Group.

Ten foot tall lizards is the name of punk band, if I recall correctly. They are not capable of global governance.

Excellent article, MoreBeta.

I think I may have to expand my reading material beyond the Daily Mail. Excellent though that paper is, there are one or two things that it doesn't cover adequately.

Interesting that Fraser Nelson says that Italy is not really bust. This is looking more and more like an engineered crisis which has reform and control objectives behind it.

claig - the thing with Italy is that if the Italian people decided to tell their politicians to just stop paying the interest they would be just fine.

That makes it a potentially explosive situation. If the people of Italy revolt they would actually truely be better off. How long before they come to that conslusion?

The real losers would be German and French banks as well as ECB if Italy and Greece defaulted as those institutions own so much Greek and Italian debt.

It is that which is the reason Berlusconi and G Pap have been deposed. Both Greece and Italian leadership were getting dangerously close to suggesting not paying the principle/interest on the outstanding debt (or even allowing their people to decide) and that is the real issue that must be avoided at all cost as far as Germany, France and ECB is concerned.

Good point.

I do fear that if the people do revolt, then they will be given a dictatorship instead of just a government of technocrats. The dictatorship would probably make sure that the banks got their interest. But they may go the other way. But if they did, who knows what would be done to them?