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Politics

Spending cuts causing public backlash against coalition, says opinion poll

53 replies

ttosca · 24/09/2011 00:07

? Guardian/ICM poll: 62% say austerity measures harm economy
? Half of voters unimpressed by coalition's record
? Only half Labour voters think Ed Miliband would be good PM

The tide of public opinion has turned against coalition spending cuts, according to a Guardian/ICM poll which shows a majority of voters now believe excessive austerity is doing more harm than good to the economy.

The research ? carried out this week before Labour's annual conference ? finds overwhelming public concern about the speed and pace of cuts in the face of the return to economic crisis and fears of a double-dip recession. Only 32% agree with the statement "the government's tax increases and public spending cuts are essential to protect Britain's economy".

Almost twice as many, 62%, now agree 'the cuts are too deep and too fast, they will harm Britain's economy more than they help it". Among voters only Conservatives are largely in favour of the coalition's programme - with 67% of definite Lib Dem and 87% of Labour supporters opposed.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/23/public-opinion-turns-against-cuts?newsfeed=true

OP posts:
niceguy2 · 26/09/2011 22:40

It's hard debating with you Ttosca because you never let little things like logic and facts stand in the way of your diatribes.

I wasn't arguing the rich shouldn't pay more tax. In fact they still do even if we had a flat rate of tax. But that's a different debate. What I was merely pointing out was that economically speaking the loss of one high earner is far far worse than the loss of a few lower paid "average" employees. So economically speaking we need to keep them. Politically I was stating the situation is reversed. I did not argue anything else above so you are arguing with something I never said.

As for taking money out of the economy, there is of course a trade off. Noone wants to see the NHS scrapped or teachers being sacked. But again...economically speaking if you tax someone, the money is no longer available to the private sector. If you tax me £10, I have £10 less to spend. Out of my £10 you have to pay the salary of someone and some of it will end up back in the private sector. But less. So you see, money is being taken out. Yes you may have spent it on what you think is a "good cause" but economically speaking it's less money in the economy.

Corporation tax does seem to be bringing in a lot less money than income tax. The natural instinct is to up the tax & force them to pay more. But as I said on another thread, we work in a global economy now. This can only be done if all the other key countries adopt similar policies. We can't act unilaterally on this one.

ttosca · 26/09/2011 23:01

niceguy-

It's hard debating with you Ttosca because you never let little things like logic and facts stand in the way of your diatribes.

That's funny, that's my impression of you.

I wasn't arguing the rich shouldn't pay more tax. In fact they still do even if we had a flat rate of tax. But that's a different debate. What I was merely pointing out was that economically speaking the loss of one high earner is far far worse than the loss of a few lower paid "average" employees. So economically speaking we need to keep them. Politically I was stating the situation is reversed. I did not argue anything else above so you are arguing with something I never said.

And that's nothing but neo-liberal received wisdom. What makes you think the loss of someone on £90K is worse than three times on £30K? In fact, there are arguments to point out the converse: each of the people on £30K has less money to keep. i.e. They will necessarily spend more of their income on basic necessities.

You've fallen for the disproven idea of trickle-down economics. It doesn't work and it never has worked. If it did, we wouldn't be seeing the greatest wealth inequality since the Victorian times, would we?

The problem with the economy now is with demand. People have no money to spend. It's not that businesses are packing up and moving to Zimbabwe where there is a lower tax regime. The problem is that people are out of work and don't have enough money to spend on buying goods and services from companies. Money needs to go in to the hands of the bottom, not the top.

As for taking money out of the economy, there is of course a trade off. Noone wants to see the NHS scrapped or teachers being sacked. But again...economically speaking if you tax someone, the money is no longer available to the private sector. If you tax me £10, I have £10 less to spend. Out of my £10 you have to pay the salary of someone and some of it will end up back in the private sector. But less. So you see, money is being taken out. Yes you may have spent it on what you think is a "good cause" but economically speaking it's less money in the economy.

Here, you flat-out refused to listen to the arguments. It's not about supporting a 'good cause'- even though morally speaking it's the right thing to do. You entirely missed the point. The money which government spends on all the things I listed actually bolster the economy. Building a train network from tax receipts employs tens of thousands of people, all the way from the people who lay the tracks, to the safety inspectors, to the train conductors, etc. etc. Furthermore, the infrastructure itself helps the economy enormously because it facilitates the movement of labour within the country. Do you understand now? I'm not even making a moral argument. It just makes good economic sense for the government to invest in public services and public infrastucture.

Corporation tax does seem to be bringing in a lot less money than income tax. The natural instinct is to up the tax & force them to pay more. But as I said on another thread, we work in a global economy now. This can only be done if all the other key countries adopt similar policies. We can't act unilaterally on this one.

The answer is not to give up and fight to attract investment by lowering and lowering taxes. That is a race to the bottom, and shifts the tax burden on to citizens.

You're right, the battle must be fought internationally, but I don't see you arguing for that at all. You seem to only promote regressive policies.

OP posts:
breadandbutterfly · 26/09/2011 23:23

Hurrah ttosca, and congrats on such a polite reply to niceguy's patronising twaddle. Sure I couldn't manage to stay so polite.

edam · 26/09/2011 23:26

well said, ttosca.

crazynanna · 26/09/2011 23:28
claig · 26/09/2011 23:35

''

They were doing the same at Labour Conference today, particularly when they read the latest message 'fulfilling the promise of Britain'. I think they would even clap 'Freedom is Slavery'.

crazynanna · 26/09/2011 23:37

That no chin plank Gove getting the boot...now there's something to clap about! Wink

claig · 26/09/2011 23:40

'That no chin plank Gove'

I'm not sure which Gove you are referring to? That bears no resemblance to Michael.

crazynanna · 26/09/2011 23:42

ooohhh Grin
One man's meat....and all that,Claig Wink

claig · 26/09/2011 23:51

Precisely, "where's the beef?"
The beef will be Gove's speech at Conservative Conference.

crazynanna · 27/09/2011 07:48

The beef will be Gove's speech at Conservative Conference.

Agreed. It will be full of Bull! Wink

CogitoErgoSometimes · 27/09/2011 08:01

"You seem to only promote regressive policies."

And yet you only promote 'abandon capitalism'.... which is pure fantasy, totally impractical and therefore neither progressive nor regressive

niceguy2 · 27/09/2011 09:25

Again, please read what I've said rather than respond on what you thought I said.

I actually said I wasn't trying to argue the rich shouldn't pay less tax. Just making an economic statement. As it happens I don't think trickle down economics has been perfect. I think its been pretty inefficient. BUT so far i don't see a viable alternative. If you have one then I am all ears.

Like capitalism, personally i find it incredibly inefficient. We're wasting Earth's valuable resources making millions of widgets which will end up being thrown away. Or worse, a downright waste of resources like rubber dog shit or novelty kiss me quick hats. But again what's the alternative? Communism, socialism? They've all been tried and none have been successful. The only thing that seemed to have happened with those regimes is practically everyone was poor except the political elite.

You're right, the battle must be fought internationally, but I don't see you arguing for that at all. You seem to only promote regressive policies.

Brilliant. So despite me saying that we must act internationally and you agreeing, somehow I've not argued for it and am somehow promoting regressive policies??? Again, i haven't argued here for a drop in corporation tax. In fact the only time I can remember doing so was as a suggestion for attracting investment on a temporary basis. I've not said we have to have a race to the bottom. That's your sentence which you keep repeating. I just merely state that if you want to tax companies more then we have to be aligned with our competition and that any rate increase needs to be done as part of a coordinated effort.

At the end of the day the answer isn't cuts alone. We can only balance our deficit in tandem with tax increases. But cuts are a necessary part.

Given the dire state of the economy, the scale of the cuts and proposed tax increases, it's telling really that despite all this, Labour are not higher in the polls than they are.

claig · 27/09/2011 13:09

'Agreed. It will be full of Bull!'

If you mean 'Bull', as in bulldog spirit, then I wholeheartedly agree.
If you mean 'Bull' as in (Ed) Bulls, then you are sorely mistaken. Wink

edam · 27/09/2011 22:50

Yeah, public distrust of/opposition to the government doesn't automatically translate into support for the other side. Labour has to work hard to attract the votes of the disillusioned. Not convinced Ed looks like a future PM, tbh - too wet. And image does matter.

Not that being a PR man was enough for Cameron - all that Murdoch muscle, all those ill-gotten tax dodging Ashcroft billlions funding his election campaign and he still didn't manage to win, bless him.

jackstarb · 27/09/2011 23:31

"We're wasting Earth's valuable resources making millions of widgets which will end up being thrown away. Or worse, a downright waste of resources like rubber dog shit"

NG2 - In your opinion [and to be honest mine] these are a waste of resources. But obviously not to the people who buy them. And that's the point - who gets to decide?

Ideally, production costs need to include externalities (the real cost to the environment etc.) But if people want to buy plastic dog pooh - then they can. Who's to say it adds less to their life than, for example, NG2's evening tipple (a G&T - perhaps?),

CogitoErgoSometimes · 28/09/2011 07:48

Agree with edam. Foot and Kinnock found it wasn't enough to be leader of the opposition when the government was unpopular. Milliband will find the same thing if his biggest selling point is 'I'm not Tony Blair'. Reminded me of IDS's 'quiet man' speech. (Not good) His front bench at the conference yesterday with their glassily fixed grins said it all.... 'how quickly can we get the bugger out?'.

niceguy2 · 28/09/2011 09:28

JackStar. I agree. Thats why I say that whilst I think Capitalism is wasteful, at the moment there just isn't a credible alternative. When there is, I'll happy push for it.

Right now I'd rather have the choice and let competition improve things than some central government diktat tell me what I can/cannot have. My GF is from a former communist country and from the sounds of things it wasn't much fun.

Capitalism isn't efficient but it's a damn site better than the alternatives.

jackstarb · 28/09/2011 12:56

NG2 - I find it fascinating talking to people who grew up in communist countries. The absence of 'consumer choice' had a profound effect on their quality of life. Sometimes it's seemingly trivial things such as all restaurants offering the same [bland] food - so people rarely bothered to eat out. Or having to live in identical flats [badly] designed by some central planner.

Of course, not being able to travel abroad (where one may be corrupted by capitalism) was a more sinister effect.

breadandbutterfly · 28/09/2011 17:40

Interesting - how would you explain the huge popularity of communists in the former East Germany then? I have lots of relatives in East Germany - we visited them under Communism. They had no freedom, no choice re food etc BUT they did all have secure homes, jobs, pensions.

Hence the nostalgia there now.

Visit Russia say, now, and see the old ladies whose secure old age was stolen from them by the collapse of communism, who now make a living by sweeping the streets free of snow in the bitterest weather - would you like to be doing this in your old age?

Communism limited freedom, choice etc - all bad. But to regard untramelled capitalism as some sort of utopia is equally laughable.

Would I rather have a wide range of fruit in the shops or a secure roof over my head? Obviously, I'd rather have both. But given the choice, I'm not sure everyone would plump for the fruit. I suspect it's easy to go for the fruit IF you know that your house is already secure, your job guaranteed etc. For others, the choice is rather less clear cut.

jackstarb · 28/09/2011 19:51

Bread - Western-style democracies seem to manage to provide a roof over the head for the vast majority and offer a wide selection of consumer goods.

Of course some people were materially better off in Soviet times. To be fair my friends are a somewhat biased sample. They are youngish, highly skilled and have chosen to live in the UK.

But I think most people would be reluctant to trade their basic freedoms for a minimum financial security.

niceguy2 · 28/09/2011 20:58

In times of hardship people tend to yearn for the security of what they know best. In your example Bread, I suspect that's what is happening.

Anyway, we're getting somewhat off the point. This thread isn't about about capitalism vs communism, it's about spending cuts causing a backlash.

And on that one I'm not really seeing a big backlash. In fact given the scale of the cuts, its damning that Labour are not the runaway favourites. Surely that fear was one of the main reasons one of the first thing the coalition did was fix the election times to 5 years. Because they expected the next few years to be as popular as turd.

But given all that is happening, Labour can't seem to manage to gain confidence. I think that in itself says volumes about what the majority of people really think about the cuts. And that is whilst we don't like it, we accept it has to happen.

ttosca · 28/09/2011 21:12

Please. It's not about Capitalism vs. Communism.

The people fighting every day in the streets, occupying wall street, occupying Syntagma Square in Greece, and people about to occupy the Westminster Bridge on Oct 9th against the privitisation of the NHS aren't fighting to authoritarian Communism.

In fact, one of the key characteristics that the global protests against Capitalism have in common is that they are decentralised, and anti-authoritarian - to a fault.

The fight against Capitalism isn't about 'providing a better alternative' - alternatives are presented and enacted every day when people choose to act according to social good rather than for private gain.

This isn't about a battle of ideas. It's a battle for power. When Capitalism came in to being (not all at once) about 400 years ago, there was no 'grand plan'. There were no big blueprints for the 'new economic plan' of Capitalism. It wasn't like that at all.

Likewise, people who ask for a 'grand plan' for an alternative are asking the impossible. No economic system in the history of mankind has every been devised like that.

Capitalism is not only wasteful, but we're reaching a point now where it threatens the environment, political stability, and the economic wellbeing, not just those who are exploited in the third world, but the middle-class in wealthy Western countries. When the middle-class is being screwed, you know something is up, and cannot last.

At that point, you either have a revolution, or a dictatorship.

What's it going to be?

OP posts:
jackstarb · 28/09/2011 22:28

Ttosca - I think you'll find the USSR was run by a grand plan Hmm.

I'm not convinced by the idea that an economy can be run by people acting for social good.

Assuming that you can 'persuade' everybody that acting for 'social good' is the thing to do - how does each individual know what action to take?

I struggle with ethical shopping choices & I really do try. Balancing organic, local, free-trade etc. is a head-ache. Imagine if every action was based on perceived 'social good'. Which job to take? how many children to have? Whether to be a working mother?

As for businesses - how will they decide - how much to pay staff? how much to charge customers? What products to design? Where to manufacture?

BTW - You can kinda factor 'social good' into capitalism by charging for externalities. Whilst consumer power can often be a force for social good (helped now by the Internet).

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