The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom

[Tortington]

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom

"Gerald Kaufman asked the Prime Minister to consider how these rioters can be ?reclaimed? by society. Yes, this is indeed the same Gerald Kaufman who submitted a claim for three months? expenses totalling £14,301.60, which included £8,865 for a Bang & Olufsen television."

but that's ok, becuase as he was STEALING that television, he wasn't wearing a hood

Exactly, so the Oborne piece pointing out that some people at the top of society is fine making that point... but extrapolating it to conclude that it's no surprise when others follow their example is poor logic. Takver's comment that some of those at the top think they that the law doesn't apply to them I suspect is precisely the case. They feel protected by their status. But those at the bottom thinking the same thing are doing so for very different reasons... not identifying with the upper echelons.

Actually, I did wonder if I was being a bit optimistic there and your explanation was a better one.

But how to explain the fact that in plenty of parts of the UK if you drop your wallet it will come back to you with not a penny missing?

The looters have nothing on the thieving MP's, at best they are all as bad as each other. Some of the police are corrupt. Makes me realise I've been a total mug.

I pay income tax on every penny I earn, am poor and work full time. We as a family (DD, who is wanting to study) have been hit very hard by the cuts and can understand how frustrated people feel. Also law abiding. I get fed up with people spouting off about single mothers, benefit cheats etc when they are salt of the earth natives, builders and the like scamming the system as well.

Lets face it most rich people have got where they are by knowing all the bloody scams.

Sorry, post was aimed at Sprogger.

Agree Cogito that those at the bottom don't work on the same logic at those at the top. More perhaps that they don't feel that they have anything to lose?

Claig. Black youth murdering other young black people does not get same attention as it normally effects those in that community, whilst rioting/looting/murder has affected people all over the country. The police are far too PC and have not stopped and searched enough kids on the streets to stop knife or gun crime. These ineptitude by the plods has resulted in a frightened society, many of the law abiding families have fled London and other major cities, as they fear their children will end up with a knife in the guts for looking at someone in a 'wrong' way. Until Cameron becomes really tough and talks the talk, society will continue to live in fear, and those who stand up against thugs may end up dead on the pavements of this country.

The black guy you spoke of is Shaun Bailey, who always speaks sense, he should be consulted by Cameron, he knows what goes on in the streets.

Cameron made me laugh when he said that these gangs were 'sick' in gang culture this term means great or good. But then what does David know about street gangs? Let's hope he can sort out this 'sick' society.

I don't even think it's 'nothing to lose'. I think it's more like 'I'll never get caught'... Heard one Manchester rioter last week and his rationale was that there were hundreds on the streets, he'd only heard of 10 arrests so he figured his behaviour presented very little risk of punishment. A budding statistician but, sadly, not factoring in that the police will be going through CCTV footage for quite some time.

None of which links to Oborne's 'rotten at the top' claim....

I think what you're saying makes total sense, sprogger.

I'd add one more to your list which I suspect has brought quite a few teenagers onto the streets, which is the adrenaline rush from being part of a group in a dangerous situation - an "us against them" scenario.

Thanks for linking to Oborne's blog, Custy, he makes a very powerful case.

Sprogger, the adrenaline rush is presumably a factor in the way the City behaves as well.

Oh, and let's not forget the media, too. Daily Mail has been working itself into a lather of indignation and even managing to get in the usual blame the Beeb nonsense. Yet this was the paper that was the biggest user of illegal telephone hacking according to the information commissioner's report. And they never mention in all their Beeb-bashing that the real reason they hate the Beeb is commercial rivalry...

'Claig. Black youth murdering other young black people does not get same attention as it normally effects those in that community, whilst rioting/looting/murder has affected people all over the country. The police are far too PC and have not stopped and searched enough kids on the streets to stop knife or gun crime. These ineptitude by the plods has resulted in a frightened society, many of the law abiding families have fled London and other major cities, as they fear their children will end up with a knife in the guts for looking at someone in a 'wrong' way. Until Cameron becomes really tough and talks the talk, society will continue to live in fear, and those who stand up against thugs may end up dead on the pavements of this country.

The black guy you spoke of is Shaun Bailey, who always speaks sense, he should be consulted by Cameron, he knows what goes on in the streets.'

ironman, I agree. But it is not the police's fault. It is the politicians who set policy. The authorities have a duty to protect the people in those communities from gangs and drugs. The reason it has spread and affected wider society is because they never stopped it earlier on.

Yes Shaun Bailey is excellent. He made the talented politician and former mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, look like a political novice with the force of his reasoning and arguments. He should definitely be promoted high up. We need people of sense like him to counter the nonsense we too often hear.

There was an idiot youth worker on TV, who went to Oxford University, and said we needed "more compassion, love and understanding". Shaun Bailey never went to Oxford but is far smarter than him and even Livingstone. So many of these MPs even in Lambeth, Tottenham etc. all went to Oxbridge. They haven't got a clue and they are less representative of the people who live in those areas than ex-gang member Shaun Bailey. It's time we had more non-Oxbridge types representing the public, more Shaun Baileys.

Excellent article - thanks for linking, OP. Oborne sums up the real moral malaise at the heart of society very well. Everyone is out for himself and there is little sense of public duty or responsibility, even among those with the greatest responsibility on their shoulders like Cameron, Osborne etc.

I just finished reading a book covering the history of monetary policy between the wars in Europe and the US and one major issue at that time was large public debt due to the cost of the First World War. A story that really stood out for me was the then Financial Secretary in the UK and future Prime Minister, Stanley Baldwin, donating 20% of his own personal wealth to contribute to paying off Britain's war debts. He encouraged other rich people to make similar voluntary donations for the cause (he had made big bucks in industry before going into politics).

Nowadays, the rich just want to evade / avoid tax and dump the burden of the debts from the financial crisis on the poorest and weakest. It's immoral and I'm glad Peter Oborne, at least, is pointing that out.

We only finished paying off the war debt from WW2 during the Blair government. Funny how none of those Hollywood films ever mention we had to pay the Americans to take part... (before anyone gets all outraged, ordinary American servicemen were just as brave as any other ally, but the government got not just a pound of flesh but a few tons. And we screwed various small territories like Diego Garcia to give it to them).

Excellent article.

One thing I'm interested in is how values among British elites have changed (you may not like the notion of elites, but there they very much are). It seems to me that the sense of social duty of the British upper middle class has almost entirely evaporated in the space of one generation and has been largely displaced by greed and narcissism.

25 years ago at my (very posh) school, my peers wanted to do quite a wide variety of jobs. The City was certainly a destination for many but so also were the Army, the Diplomatic Service, the Civil Service, teaching, academia, the arts and the Church. Everyone knew these jobs were relatively badly paid (the relativities are much worse now) but they were regarded as worthwhile, challenging and having high status. It may sound patrician and old-fashioned now, but jobs where you would be "putting something back" had more cred than mere money-making.

I went to do a careers talk at my old school last year. Among the sixth formers I spoke to, I didn't meet a single person who was interested in anything other than making money (City, commercial bar) or celebrity (the cool kids who didn't want to be bankers or lawyers wanted to be on telly or "in a band").

I won't labour the parallels between attitidues in this very privileged group of young people and those who have recently been looting JD Sports. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to make money, but this seems to me a significant shift in values for a social group which has taken place in a relatively short space of time.

Why has this happened? I really don't know. Pick one or more things from the following list:

• more consumerism, so people feel they need to earn more money to have more stuff;
• house price inflation, so ditto;
• greater competition for graduate jobs;
• globalisation means more competitive pressures on middle class living standards;
• I'm getting old and everything's getting worse.

Views please!

At least some of these 'feral rioting underclass scum' will have noticed that the MPs and the bankers and the company directors line their pockets by breaking the law and do not get punished for it. So there will come a point where they think 'I want something for nothing too and why shouldn't I get away with it?'

Interesting posts, Inmyprime,Trustyservant and Claig.

It's disappointing that so many of the government and richer members of society aren't providing us with a better example. But they are just products, like the rest of us, of the general ethos, which is that money really is the most important thing in life.

Politicians, police and other official bodies have an important role to play, but we can't rely on them to sort out the problems in our own communities. I think we should stop feeling helpless and underestimating how much difference we can make ourselves.

Yep it's do as I say not as I do says mr Cameron from behind the double glazing in his house he paid for with expenses while remembering his own actions when involved in student rioting as a youth "Things got out of hand & we?d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.?

Here is Oborne's excellent article published in The Telegraph today (Saturday).

Such a shame Oborne's article is a predictable anti-Labour rant instead of the intelligent analysis shown in his blog.