The way the Conservatives transformed a crisis of the banks into a crisis of public spending was a stroke of political genius. This year, bankers got away with awarding themselves nearly £14bn

[Tortington]

"The way the Conservatives transformed a crisis of the banks into a crisis of public spending was a stroke of political genius. This year, bankers got away with awarding themselves nearly £14bn of bonuses with barely a word of complaint. Meanwhile, the Tories have carefully constructed the image of a public sector workforce made up of idle, pampered pen-pushers who can easily be disposed of."

Guardian link below

am also liking 't's also classic Tory divide-and-rule politics. Make low-paid call centre and supermarket workers resent nurses and firefighters, and you will destroy any potential unity on issues such as cuts, pensions and rights in the workplace.'

its ok working class people, the rich people still get richer

I don't think the electorate is twigging crazynanna.

Without any credible alternatives, and with public sector unions arguing the toss over every single cut and saving, the workers in the private sector wonder where to turn.

It's time for the Labour party to start putting some ideas out isn't it?

What's the alternative? Barclays Bank paid 1% tax in 2010. Philip Green (Arcadia and Govt advisor on 'efficiency savings') is a tax avoider, etc, etc. Please explain why teaching assistants are being sacked while this lot pay sod all tax? Benefits claimants are demonised and disabled people sent back to work with terminal cancer, having been 'assessed' by Atos (French IT firm) which gets £100million p/a for doing it. That'll do for a start, plenty more if required.

Thing is Edam we're kinda stuck with the rating agencies and the whole crap system.

We borrowed oodles understanding the rules of the game. We can't just step out now can we? We owe too much and have to make our repayments.

ironman ah, was waiting for that!!!! Overseas aid should be mandatory for all developed countries. Are you so very arrogant to think that the UK may never need overseas aid??? Really??

It is our responsibilty to look after those who cannot look after themselves and give succor to those in desperate need, like the children starving to death in eastern africa.

Bet you think we should lock up all the people with autism/adhd/sn as well, dont you???

You sicken me.

word - we need to work out what went wrong in order to put it right. If we allow the sort of unbridled financial shenanigans that got us into this mess in the first place to resume, it'll happen all over again. We need to stop and think, what kind of society do we want? What sort of economy do we want? Do we want to be dependent on the whims of people who are so greedy that they think pass the parcel is a risk-free game? And so deluded that they think they are clever enough to eliminate all risks? And so arrogant that they think the taxpayer should shoulder THEIR losses, while any profits are theirs to take in bonuses?

Banking and financial services should be a support function. It's a sideshow, not the main act. The plumbing of the economy, if you will. We need to think about how we protect the real economy, not make the real economy the whipping boy for the bankers.

Yup Alice tightening tax schemes might be one place to start (The bloody Guardian might think about paying its due too).

To be honest though, I do think we'd need to look very carefully at what we might lose versus what we might gain. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. My understanding was this was the reason why nothing was done during three Labour administrations. But I don't know the detail to be honest.

We really don't have a problem making our repayments. GB debt is long term, doesn't have to be repaid tomorrow. We have plenty of time to do this sensibly. There are only two reasons for Chicken Licken style panic - one, because frightening everyone allows the government to do what they wanted to do anyway, and savage public services. And two, because the government wants to make the savage cuts now, in the hopes that we'll all have forgotten how awful it was that disabled people were left without care by the time the next election comes round.

If they allowed councils to phase in cuts sensibly, they could protect social care and make sure the vulnerable don't suffer. Front-loading means stupid self-defeating cuts that will cost more in the long term. Making people wait longer for surgery might help the books look good in the next few months, but costs a hell of a lot more in terms of disability and being forced out of work due to ill-health. Sacking youth workers from programmes that gave vulnerable teenagers an alternative to gangs means crime goes up, which again costs more in the long term.

I don't agree that cuts need to be made.

I don't think the deficit will be reduced by cutting spending in a poorly performing economy.

The only thing that will bring the deficit down is the opposite of what caused it - economic growth.

You don't stimulate economic growth by taking money out of the economy.

The government can borrow money at very low rates at the moment, so it is stupid to worry about cutting the deficit now.

The public sector is the only sector that might stimulate a turn around in the economy. We can pay down our debts when the economy isn't about to head back into recession.

Hmm I am divided on this one.
I absolutely do not agree with the bankers getting £14bn of bonuses, absolutely no way.
However there was some crazy waste going on in the public sector and some adjustments definitely needed to be made.
I'm just not sure that so many cuts so quickly is going to work as in my very amateur eyes it's just going to bring the economy to a halt as no-one is going to be spending anything.
I also don't agree with cutting overseas aid. It's not charity, we don't hand out money just to be nice. We do it with the ultimate aim of stopping an impact on the uk so DfID money is used to help countries straighten out their own economies, to get themselves out of poverty so they don't have to rely on us and in fact so some of the larger economies (India, Brazil etc) can do more to help other countries around them so we don't have to do it. Also, to prevent more asylum seekers and refugees, to try and stop drugs entering this country, to encourage trade etc. Of course, that's the theory and it doesn't always work but just saying stop all aid is, in my very humble opinion, quite naive. We live in a global economy now, we can't be an island any more.

But some people think raising taxes is not the answer because it will slow down the economic recovery. Their argument is that rich people, companies etc will go elsewhere if taxes are raised. I don't think so, because there are so many other advantages to being based in the UK.

With this being a global crisis, I suppose the best way to cope would be for all countries to raise taxes? Then that argument wouldn't stand. But haven't they just agreed to tax cuts in the USA, along with public spending cuts? I really don't understand how they expect that to help.

I suppose it's a question of whether you believe rich people provide more economic opportunities (jobs etc) and pay more into the economy (taxes) than they take out of it (by playing the system eg banks etc).

Do you really think they would have done it sensibly though?
I didn't get the sense at all that they would. They just seemed iopposed to everything.

To be hoinest everything the Labour party tried to put on the table the unions rejected. That's why at the last election we had nothing to give to the voters. It was bloody awful, like the feckin' eighties all over again.

Sorry that was to Edam

Great posts, Edam.

It's a cycle, we have to get through this to come out the other side, it too will pass, that's what I keep telling myself.

Rich people don't spend, poor people do, they have to.

Poor people are really cutting back though.

The businesses that are doing well are selling luxury goods to the super rich who are untouched by the crisis.

We are absolutely NOT in this together.

Perfectly respectable bit of Keynes, Shecut. This madness is the long held dream of the Tories, ignore the crocodile tears of Gideon etc.

yeah, and the government knew full well that telling people who had managed to cling onto their jobs so far 'you are going to be out of a job soon' would stop everyone spending. As does 'take a pay cut or a below-inflation pay rise'. And then they wonder why the economy is struggling?

How refreshing to hear people talking sensibly (for the most part) about the economic situation.

So many people seem to be taken in by the idea that the economic woes of this country were caused by the Labour administration.

Also it is maddening when people quote figures for increases in spending or debt without allowing for the inflation that occurred over 12 years or so. They also don't reflect how much the previous tory government had reduced public spending when they had been in power.

It is clear to that the majority of spending cuts are idealogically driven, but being passed off to the masses as essential belt tightening .

Everybody will suffer and it's only just started.

The glaring problem with the line taken by people like ironman who bang on about it all being the fault of labour and Brown is that it was / is a Global crisis. So unless you think Labour were infact running the world it's a pretty stupid argument.

Even Mervin King blamed the banks, he's as bewildered as me as why the public aren't in uproar against the ( some ) bankers.

And worth pointing out the cuts are being championed by two over privalaged Etonians who enjoy / ed massive Multi million pound trust funds.

Surely the move to privatisation of health will cost the taxpayers more? Our council stopped providing respote care. Workers were paid £7 and hour and employed directly by the council. Now the council pay an agency £15 and hour to provide that £7 worker.
Madness.

Good explanation on that site, Sproggaaaaah.

Riven - yes, of course it will. But it'll be dressed up with weasel words about 'efficiency'. While actually the truth is it's about making fat profits for Gideon and David's mates. Mark Britnell, former Dept of Health policy wonk, let the cat out of the bag at a seminar for fat cats in the US when he promised the NHS wouldn't know what had hit it - because it's all going to be carved up into 'profit centres' for the likes of Capita, G4S and KPMG.