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Politics

Birmingham ICT goes to INDIA

44 replies

ethel1 · 02/06/2011 22:40

Birmingham city council to outsource ict to India !
Shouldn't councils keep this in house, If these people are made redundant the tax payers will have to pay the dole money, they say young people in India will have jobs to help their economy ,
what about our young people ?
Manufacturings gone, Next council workers?

OP posts:
dreamingofsun · 03/06/2011 19:54

meglet - i work from home for a large company so not practical for IT to wander round. Its fine doing it remotely, they access your PC over the internet and can see whats happening - so in reality makes very little difference - assuming of course they can speak english, which can be more of an issue at first. Our IT helpdesk is in india and now they've learnt to speak english they are very good. its been more of a problem when they've tried to outsource other things that aren't system based...thats gone really pear shaped and had to be brought back to the uk

AlpinePony · 04/06/2011 07:29

It's a worrying trend, I think many people don't understand just quite how serious it is - and won't - until it's their job on the line.

I work for an international IT company, a huge amount of work has gone to India/China/Egypt etc. The strategic positions remain safe - but I'm not sure for how long.

Finance positions are now being out-sourced - law is heading that way. Self-service at the supermarkets.

Soon the only "safe" jobs will be those which physically require someone to be there, e.g., police/nurse/bus-driver.

But right now I reckon most of mn won't give a flying fuck - because it's just a "few IT geeks" at risk.

This is going to bite us all on the arse.

For the "practicalities" of having IT off-shore, I think perhaps the person who questioned this doesn't understand "IT". For software issues, all can be fixed remotely. For hardware issues, we have a courier physically collect the machine and fix/replace it.

Wormshuffler · 04/06/2011 07:48

I find it shocking in the extreme, the amount of money the council chiefs are on should be reviewed before jobs are lost to India. The CE is on £233,000, how can that be justified? There should be demonstrations. If it happens in My town I will be making a noise about it!

AlpinePony · 04/06/2011 07:54

Oh it's not just the jobs - what about the "contract negotiations"? Ours included business class flights on BA to Bangalore, 10 day stays in a 5* hotel, etc., etc., etc. Sadly I missed out on the aforementioned junket as I'd just had abdominal surgery and my surgeon told me that no way should I be going to India!

I wonder how much time that Birmingham CE has spent in India finalising the deal?

I know the public sector needs to trim down some, but if there is work to be done then it must remain on-shore. :(

shudaville · 04/06/2011 09:02

The council is just seeking to become more efficient which is a laudable aim in my view. Hopefully by doing this and other efficiency drives they may not have to have such a high rate of council tax.

Wormshuffler · 04/06/2011 09:16

They claim it will save £35 million over 4 years!!! how on earth can 100 staff and computers equate to this. They threw the money away in the first place by out sourcing the IT department to another company. If they had kept it in-house they wouldn't be in this position now.

dreamingofsun · 04/06/2011 09:43

worm - a lot of the problems caused by the pension liabilities. the company i work for has pulled out of bidding for a load of outsourcing deals because the public sector pension liabilities are so high.

council workers need to be more realistic on their packages and then there would be less need to oursource to india.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 04/06/2011 17:28

Most of what a council does is very hands-on and has to be local, but IT can be done anywhere and people working in that sector know this. Many organisations use indian call-centres. I'd have thought the argument is that if they can reduce expenditure by outsourcing one team overeas, then they won't have to cut back on other workers. Lesser of two evils

AlpinePony · 04/06/2011 17:41

You do realise that IT is a bit more than "have you tried turning it off and on again?" right? Hmm Take for example the database administration for your council tax bill - pay by direct debit do you? Oh, your bank details are in India then.

Perhaps the council chiefs will sit up and think when their pension system is designed and built off-shore. Wink

CogitoErgoSometimes · 05/06/2011 08:32

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the job is too tricky to be managed by a facility in India or that, by being offshore/remote, it somehow affects security. Given the number of home-grown security lapses, maybe offshore is actually a better option.. Many companies use outsourced facilities very successfully and there's no reason at all why it wouldn't work for councils.

BelleDameSansMerci · 05/06/2011 09:00

The entire contract will probably save the £35m unless the Council had a phenomenally expensive IT Dept, which is unlikely.

There are lots of these kinds of contracts all over the country - some have been in place for years. In many cases, the private companies make huge investments in the early years (many millions) which enables much better services to be provided to the local citizens. In this climate, the focus is on cutting costs while preserving "frontline" services. IT is not a frontline service so is probably considered "fair game" and would be an obvious choice for cost cutting.

Eve · 05/06/2011 09:21

Only outsourcing to India now? Most private sector companies have done that years ago?

One of the reasons there are no graduate jobs anymore... All those 'beginner' roles we used to use grads for are all now down in India.

niceguy2 · 05/06/2011 10:35

This is actually the job I do. I take people's jobs and move them offshore.

Firstly let me say that yes, technically it will be Capita who is the employer but they would never do this without explicit agreement from the council. In short, the council could have pulled the plug at anytime by simply saying it's not a good idea.

Secondly, the simple fact is that an UK employee is bloody expensive. Their salaries is just one part. Other significant costs are employers NI, pension contributions, car allowances, training, health & safety etc. etc.

Compare this with an indian person who will be at the very least a graduate. They'll work 60 hours plus at the drop of a hat, sit a desk half the size of a UK one and he/she will be happy as pie to do all this at a third of the cost of a UK employee.....Do the maths!

And that's assuming Capita don't achieve the holy grail of outsourcing and double bubble their employees. Ie. having same employees work multiple contracts.

Your typical Indian worker attitudes towards work is way better than your average UK person. The older generation of Indian's were a bit too reserved and often didn't speak up if they had a problem. The generation coming through now are much more vocal and work more in the same way as a western worker would.

Telecommunications means now that a lot of work, ironically especially IT can be done just as effectively from India as it can be in the UK.

The blunt truth is that councils need to save money since their grant from central government have been slashed. In that context it's either offshore some jobs to save money or raise council tax bills. Who here is willing to pay more council tax?

newwave · 05/06/2011 16:00

This is actually the job I do. I take people's jobs and move them offshore.

You must be very proud, pity we cannot move you offshore.

BelleDameSansMerci · 05/06/2011 18:07

But if you want the jobs to be kept in the UK, you have to accept paying higher local and national taxes for public sector workers and higher charges for other services (ie banking) in the private sector. It's an economic reality albeit a very uncomfortable one.

niceguy2 · 05/06/2011 18:43

Still rude as ever eh Newwave?

longfingernails · 05/06/2011 19:00

Why be so rude to niceguy2?

The problem isn't the outsourcers - it's the massive cost of employing someone in the UK.

Imagine how much more competitive we could be if we got rid of employers' National Insurance, red tape like the Orwellianly-titled "Equality Act", and all the other things which make it so damn expensive to hire British workers!

We still wouldn't be able to compete directly with India on cost alone (at least not for the next 10 years or so), but we would be far more competitive with many other countries.

The left just don't like to accept that regulation and taxes cost jobs. One day, I fear they will have to learn this the hard way.

dreamingofsun · 05/06/2011 21:01

belle - i pay £500 per year towards council employee's pensions already. Personally i think thats excessive and there's no way i want that increased.

longfingernails · 05/06/2011 21:28

They should pay for their own pensions. The Hutton settlement is far too generous.

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