The economy is tanking, the confidence fairy has flown. It's not too late for the coalition to heed Keynes's famous dictum

[ttosca]

George Osborne ? if the facts change, it's OK to change your mind

The economy is tanking, the confidence fairy has flown. It's not too late for the coalition to heed Keynes's famous dictum

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/01/george-osborne-economy-tanking-keynes

Got a link for that jacks? Know what they say about damn statistics haha!

I will continue saying FFS while people continue to ignore the fact that the large majority of the deficit was caused by the banking crisis, the one where we bailed out the banks and as a result we now own several banks.

False economy, false prophets?

HH - I was commenting on your link to the 'False Economy' website. The 'alternative proposal' is linked at the end.

And yes, Economics is not a definitive science. It's about people and their behaviours - which are hard to predict or control. That's why I favour Hayek over Keynes - I'm a 'bottom up' girl at heart. (watch the video).

And HH - the deficit is mainly due to the recession (caused by the banking crisis). Every month we spend more than we receive in tax income. This spend has nothing to do with bailing out banks ( apart from a relatively small interest repayment).

The cost of the banking bailout impacts in our national debt not our deficit.

1% of the income tax payers pay 25% of the income tax. 5% pay about 50%.

Firstly, please show evidence for this.

Secondly, the richest pay the most taxes because wealth inequality is so great. If you a larger number of people paying a greater share, then they should be in a position of being able to do so.

If you have 100 people, and 95 earn 1 dollar per day, and 5 earn 100 dollars per day, of course the 5 will pay the most tax for public services.

This situation shouldn't even arise in the first place. The middle-class are being systematically slaughtered; never before has there been greater wealth inequality under Capitalism (or perhaps, ever). If things continue, there will be no middle-class, and only the super-rich and the super-poor.

This link refers to 2008/9 but if the proportion paid by the 'richest' PAYE hasn't gone up significantly since -then Darling's 50% tax rate has been a failure.

"Secondly, the richest pay the most taxes because wealth inequality is so great"

Or is wealth (and income) inequality so great because the richest pay such a high rate of tax?? .

Interestingly HH's 'False Economy' crowd don't mention the income tax rate.

And never underestimate the middle classes .

As someone who has always been resolutely middle class (daughter of a doctor and a teacher), I am happy to pay more tax if I need to for the services that I believe in (education system, health service that is free at the point of us, equality of opportunity, free university education )

But maybe that's 'cos I is a leftie!

I am also old enough to remember 33% basic rate taxation AND BEING PISSED OFF AS IT WAS LOWERED

Prettybird - I do admire an intelligent leftie.

I think there is a strong argument for a broader tax base to pay for better public services (Scandinavian style). I just don't think relying on the top 5% to pay more is a sustainable strategy in a global economy.

And I'm all for equality - but see bottom up initiatives, such as the 'living wage' as the way to achieve it.

But the Right Wing bitterly fought the "living wage" (aka minimum wage).

Although I have a personal view that the minimum wage should be higher and that Working Tax credits should then be done away with - they just subsidise stingy employers.

jackstarb - yes a 'living wage' is an idea I really hoped Osborne would adopt. It seems bizarre to me that we have a minimum wage and then impose income tax on people who actually bother to get off benefits into a low paid entry level job. Surely a minimum wage of 10k per annum which has a zero rate of income tax/NI combined with a slashing of benefit entitlements is the way to go. Scrapping the nonsense bureacracy of taxing people on minimum wage and then topping their income back up again with tax credits is really a no brainer.

prettybird - we definitley need more intelligent leftes and righties because at the moment the Coalition and Labour are both frankly doing my head in. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns. i am seriously considering voting UKIP to teach them all a lesson.

x-posted with you. Glad to see we agree on minimum wage and getitng rid of Tax Credits.

Morebeta : that's why I am glad that I am in Scotland where I do have a real alternative

Prettybird - I think many Tories (Boris Johnson, Cameron) do support the living wage. They might have resisted it to start with, but Tories often take longer to adopt social change initiatives.

The living wage appears to be a 'bottom up' type policy with the minimum wage the top down equivalent.

jack

I agree with you that we should be looking at initiatives apart from taxation which put money in to the pockets of the lowest earners.

A living wage is a great example. The idea of taking the first £10,000 out of tax is also good, except it won't do any good if the other party in the coalition (vile Tory scum) systematically attack social welfare and generally make life more difficult and expensive for the lowest paid.

I say: living wage, higher tax threshold, lower VAT, regulate public transport to bring down costs (already the most expensive in europe), regulate or ensure there is more competition in the energy sector to bring down fuel costs, build more houses to bring down housing costs.

That's a start, at least. This country is so insanely expensive for the average person it's not even funny.