so are you going to bother to vote on the electoral reform referendum?

[easternstar]

Or not?

To be honest I don't think either AV or first past the post is the best method.

When I did my government and politics A-level donkey's years ago I always thought that the fairest method was to have larger constituencies and make up the difference with a party list system based on percentages.

No sorry, bitchy comments don't wash.

Try harder.

What a shame. When I was reading this thread earlier I was thinking how nice to see some political debate that doesn't descend into personal insults.

'Lots of people hope AV is the stepping stone to truly representative voting ie PR but the evidence doesn't bear this out.'

Ah. This is probably my main reason for voting 'yes'. Having read the persuasive 'no' posts I am going to consider further. Thanks ladies.

I just looked up my constituency result for 2010 & am intrigued to know if anybody has any idea what effect AV might have here. It's a safe Tory seat, always has been.

2010 - 66% turnout

Conservative 26,287
Labour 11,528
Independent 231
Liberal Democrats 10,748
UKIP 3,490

Conservative had FPTP majority of 14,759, but against all opposition votes that was only 290 (& ballots were spoiled) - but even so was still over 50% of the total vote so would still win, yes?

But it would make future elections much more worth fighting for by the other parties, wouldn't it? There was virtually no Labour canvassing here (because it's always been a safe Tory seat) & they still came second - maybe with AV things would be different.

Interesting...

a great big fat NO from me

Ponders - I think on those results, the candidate would win on first votes @50.3%

your 231 independent voters can go and boil their heads as usual & there are many constituencies where this is the case where FPTP would have given the same result

"There was virtually no Labour canvassing here (because it's always been a safe Tory seat) & they still came second - maybe with AV things would be different"

still don't think so. I would guess it depends wher your constituency comes in the list of winnable seats. If it's 180th or whatever, you are still not going to see huge labour canvassing, because there are only so many seats they can afford to get at, ie the top x number of seats which will tip them into a majority.

At that point watch very carefully what happens in individual constituencies. Suddenly the 231 who could go & boil their heads before become very important.

I would be expecting more cases like this: Labour MP Phil Woolas loses seat over election lies as the top candidates spout any old lying bollocks to squeeze the last transfer votes out of every nutjob party out there.

Ponders - it is difficult to tell, because 34% of people may not have bothered to vote because it is a safe tory seat.

If we presume that all the Labour and Lib dem voters would vote each other as the second choice, it could become tightly contested.

So, no longer a safe seat! (I wonder, is your MP against AV? )

well, quite, HH - I'm wondering now if previously safe seats would be much more affected by AV than the up for grabs ones!

I thought too that the Lab/Lib Dem voters would tend to put each other 2nd; but then DS2 (studying politics) pointed out that UKIP would prob put Tories 2nd (& vv) & that would likely make all the difference here.

I can see that AV is thoroughly imperfect but I hope it gets through, in order to see what effect it might have; & if it's utterly disastrous, who knows, we just might be offered a better alternative next time...

I'm fairly sure I'll vote against, but voting no doesn't really tell the full story does it?

Actually, this fella says it better than I could.

In particular "Now I am absolutely in favour of reform, but not just any reform. I want to see proportional representation. If a party wins 40% of the vote it should get 40% of seats in the Commons. If a party gets 20% of votes it should get 20% of seats. It isn't a hard concept to understand, and there are systems in place in countless other countries that produce this sort of result"

Yes I am very interested in seeing the effects.

Some lib dems might equally support the tories as their second choice, and vice versa, so it could produce an even stronger tory mandate.

If there is a new party which manages to get all the non voters out, it could even be an entirely new MP.

We wont know until the election..

Although the links in that article piss me off slight. It seems, according the the Electoral Reform Society, that there are no arguments against AV

"it's utterly disastrous, who knows, we just might be offered a better alternative next time..."

you are kidding
there is no next time, this is it

Some lib dems might equally support the tories as their second choice.

I suspect the run of the mill LD supporter (like me) would not have put Tory as a second (or 3rd, 4th, 5th) preference before the Coalition let alone after the Orange Bookers sell out.

Most LD's or at least the ones I know seem to be non socialist left wingers unlike the current leadership.

"Non socialist left wingers" is an oxymoron newwave.

welcome to glasnost for the Judean Peoples Liberation Front

and newwave for the People's Liberation Front of Judea

wubbly - AV was the only system supported by labour and the tories, so I dont think we will ever get anything closer to PR in the current system.

I actually prefer AV to PR, because PR would allow borderline loony parties in to government. It is right that our representatives are supported by a majority of people. It does mean that parties will have to appeal more broadly as they will have to get 50% of support.

Personally, at the last election there were 3 parties I would have been willing to support. AV would allow me to state my preferences and not have to decide by guessing what everyone else is likely to do.

Yes I will be voting, but I am disappointed that the only option is AV.

And, personally, I think there will be a next time.

"It is right that our representatives are supported by a majority of people. It does mean that parties will have to appeal more broadly as they will have to get 50% of support"

What was that Sooty?
"lalalala I'm not listening"

Well Sooty, for the 97th time AV DOES NOT GUARANTEE A WINNER WITH >50% OF THE VOTE

glas, ok, let me try to explain.

I am against nationalisation.

I am for keeping the private sector as much as possible out of the NHS, prison services and Education.

I am against private health care and private education as these are two areas where money and connections should not buy priviledge and advantage.

I believe that Rail and buses should be run by "not for profit" companies that use any profit to reduce fares not to pay greedy directors and to pay shareholder dividends. I also think the utilities should be the same.

I believe in a minimum wage and also in a maximum wage or at least that the highest paid person in a company can only earn a certain multiple of the lowest paid person.

I detest the royal family and all it stands for.

Most of those are left wing but maybe not socialist although many socialists would support them.

Limbo, you're right, you won't have to guess under AV, your main party will tell you exactly how to cast your vote(s)

According to this "Calculations of the order in which to place preferences become so complicated that the parties produce voting templates for their supporters, indicating the order in which votes should be cast"

Really, reading that, just what is the point of AV?

wubbly.

According to this "Calculations of the order in which to place preferences become so complicated that the parties produce voting templates for their supporters, indicating the order in which votes should be cast"

Really, reading that, just what is the point of AV?

Depends if your a sheep or think for yourself.

I'm sure most of us believe we think for ourselves.

Wubbly

My first choice would always be LD (once Clegg has gone) followed by Labour and Green. Sod what my party of anyone else wants.

I shall vote but against AV. This due to the fact that , No system of voting is fair and you can only please some of the people all of the time etc

Also down to the fact that AV is even worse than the system in place now. At least with the system now the majority normally get the government of choice - this is called democracy. With AV a government could get in who is no-ones first choice - very undemocratic.

Oh and I also hate it when people say " i'm voting for it because the current system is useless even though I don't agree with AV but we need a change " Not sure I am comfortable with this train of thought a bit irresponsible I think. If you don't agree with it vote "No". Then put pressure on parliament to rethink and come up with a better idea.