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Politics

TUC National Demonstration Against Cuts

867 replies

OrangeBernard · 11/03/2011 19:24

Who's going? I've just booked my train tickets. Its my first protest, any advice or tips? Bit worried about kettling.

OP posts:
ttosca · 29/03/2011 21:32

The biggest lie in British politics

British politics today is dominated by a lie. This lie is making it significantly more likely you will lose your job, your business, or your home. The lie gives a false explanation for how we came to be in this crisis, and prescribes a medicine that will worsen our disease. Yet it is hardly being challenged.

Here?s the lie. We are in a debt crisis. Our national debt is dangerously and historically high. We are being threatened by the international bond markets. The way out is to eradicate our deficit rapidly. Only that will restore ?confidence?, and therefore economic growth. Every step of this program is false, and endangers you.

Let?s start with a fact that should be on billboards across the land. As a proportion of GDP, Britain?s national debt has been higher than it is now for 200 of the past 250 years. Read that sentence again. Check it on any graph by any historian. Since 1750, there have only been two brief 30-year periods when our debt has been lower than it is now. If we are ?bust? today, as George Osborne has claimed, then we have almost always been bust. We were bust when we pioneered the Industrial Revolution. We were bust when we ruled a quarter of the world. We were bust when we beat the Nazis. We were bust when we built the NHS. Or is it George Osborne?s economics that are bust?

Our debt is not high by historical standards, and it is not high by international standards. For example, Japan?s national debt is three times bigger than ours, and they are still borrowing at good rates.

David Cameron claims that, despite these facts, they need to cut our debt by slashing our spending because the bond markets demand it. If they do not obey, then our national credit rating will be downgraded, and we will have to pay much higher interest on our debt. But here?s the flaw in that plan. That?s not what the bond markets say. Not at all. Professor Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize-winning economist whose predictions have consistently proved right through this crisis, says Cameron is conjuring up ?invisible bond vigilantes? who ?don?t exist.? Who is the bond market really punishing? It?s the countries that cut too fast, and so kill their economic growth. The last two nations to be down-graded were Ireland and Spain, who followed Cameron?s script to the letter.

It turns out that cutting our debt rapidly doesn?t cause an increase in ?confidence? and so save the economy. Professor Krugman mocks this idea by calling it ?The Confidence Fairy,? and goes through the historical record to show she doesn?t exist. Cutting doesn?t create fairy-magic. No: it has a very different effect.

Here?s what we learned during the Great Depression, when our view of economics was revolutionized by John Maynard Keynes. In a recession, private individuals like you and me, perfectly sensibly, cut back our spending. We go out less, we buy less, we save more. This causes a huge fall in private demand, and with it a huge fall in economic activity. If, at the very same time, the government cuts back, then overall demand collapses, and a recession becomes a depression. That?s why the government has to do something counter-intuitive. It has to borrow and spend more, to apply jump-leads to the economy. This prevents economic collapse. Instead of spending a fortune on dealing with mass unemployment and economic break-down, with all the misery that causes, it spends the money on restoring growth. Keynes called it ?the paradox of thrift?: when the people spend less, the government has to spend more.

Wherever it has been tried, it has worked. Look at the last Great Depression. The Great Crash of 1929 was followed by a US President, Herbert Hoover, who did everything Cameron demands. He cut spending and paid off the debt. The recession grew and grew. Then Franklin Roosevelt was elected and listened to Keynes. He ramped up spending ? and unemployment fell, and the economy swelled. Then in 1936 he started listening to the Cameron debt-shriekers of his day. The result? The economy collapsed again. It was only the gigantic spending of the Second World War that finally ended it.

It is working now. There are enough countries in the world trying enough different economic solutions that we examine them like laboratories. which countries have come out of this recession fastest? They are the ones like South Korea, which have had by far the biggest stimulus packages, paid for with (yes) higher debt. Which countries have fallen furthest and shattered most severely? The ones that tried to pay down their debts immediately with huge cuts.

Indeed, there?s an irony here. It turns out that if all you do is fixate on paying your debt now now now, and so you smother your economic growth, you will end up not being able to pay your debts off anyway. That?s what just happened to our nearest neighbor Ireland, may she rest in peace. And it?s what has happened throughout British history. Professors Victoria Chick and Ann Pettifor conducted a detailed study of the last ten recessions, and they found that consistently ?fiscal consolidation increases rather than reduces the level of public debt as a share of GDP.? Think of it this way. It?s as if tomorrow you became so panicked about your mortgage that you decided to pay it all off in one year, by ceasing to buy food and water. You get sick, and your house gets repossessed.

So debt isn?t the problem. Debt is part of the cure. The facts suggest need to spend more, not less, to get the economy back to life ? and pay back the debt in the good times, when we will be able to afford it.

I am not a doctrinaire defender of the last Labour government. I think Tony Blair should be in prison, and Gordon Brown will be damned by history for his role in deregulating the banks ? the real cause of this crisis. But to claim that this crisis was caused by Labour ?racking up debt? is simply false. When the Great Crash hit, Britain had the second-lowest debt in the G7 club of leading economies. To react to a recession by increasing spending, and so keeping the economy afloat, is the only rational response. The real criticism is that they didn?t go anything like far enough, and now Ed Miliband?s Labour Party is now too cowardly to defy the false conventional wisdom and make the case for fiscal stimulus, instead promising merely slower, smarter cuts.

The real reason why David Cameron is imposing these massive cuts has nothing to do with the national debt. It is because he regards himself as, in his words, ?the child of Thatcher?, and he wants to pursue her agenda harder and faster than she ever dreamed. He can do the difficult job of selling that to the British people if he wishes ? but he should stop doing it on the basis of a swollen, suppurating lie.

johannhari.com/2011/03/29/the-biggest-lie-in-british-politics

moondog · 29/03/2011 21:33

Oh God, spare us that prick-please.

smallwhitecat · 29/03/2011 21:33

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moondog · 29/03/2011 21:36

'I'm willing to give free schools a go on the basis that if someone can be bothered to set one up chances are they'll be more committed to providing something decent than the average LEA employee who frankly doesn't give a fuck - and who culd be cut without doing an ounce of damage to anyone's educational prospects.'

Absolutely
The most worrying thing of all is that so many of those bleating about how essential their 'services' are, aren't benefitting others. They aren't even a neutral force. They are actually damaging.,

wubblybubbly · 29/03/2011 21:37

Ooh, you got me, Moondog, I made it all up. Like I give a flying fuck whether you believe me or not Hmm

moondog · 29/03/2011 21:39

It obviously riles you enough to post about it in a puerile fashion.
Go on, stamp your feet.

smallwhitecat · 29/03/2011 21:39

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wubblybubbly · 29/03/2011 21:40

Rile me? I know you'd like to think that, but you're kinda like polyester moodog, a bit nasty, but not worth getting het up over.

wook · 29/03/2011 21:40

Certainly true that throwing money at a school is not the only solution- there's an academy around our way that has thrown money at keeping staff, losing staff, putting extra layers of management in, redesigning the logos etc to little effect (as yet). In fact there are two of these academies.
Neither as yet is improving. On the other hand, money is very tight indeed at the school I work in and this does have an impact on the learning: we need to intervene with many students but there is no money to pay support staff. There is no money to attract really good staff with golden hellos or whatever. There is no money to offer some of the opportunities we want to offer to enrich the curriculum. We can't replace sets of books. There are no interactive whiteboards. We can't afford to intervene at GCSE the way that some schools do. (The ones we are judged against) The school does well anyway especially considering all this, but not as well as it could or should for some sections of students.
It is all about the teaching and learning- however, money can help to improve the teaching and learning.
I don't think it is patronising moondog to suggest that there are barriers in some sections of society to prevent people from setting up free schools. It's simply a fact. Just as other things eg lack of time, lack of energy etc may prevent others.
A local free school being mooted in a county near here involves at least one person who is renowned locally to have been a very weak teacher. Without proper checks and balances all manner of crazy institutions will sprout up, at the taxpayers (great) expense. Talk about a political choice.
Where moondog did I suggest that having a service alone is evidence of its efficacy? The one thing even you are not blinkered enough to agree on, surely, is the fact that not having the service at all is a 100% guarantee it won't have any impact. Stripping it back to teh bone will also reduce its efficacy somewhat.

smallwhitecat · 29/03/2011 21:45

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Niceguy2 · 29/03/2011 21:47

Yawn Ttosca. Basically a long article which says:

  1. There's no problem because we owe less than we used to as a proportion of our GDP.

  2. Other countries still have to borrow money so we must be ok then to borrow too!

  3. There are no problems because people are still lending to us.

So.....basically we should just carry on until people do stop lending, our friends do go bust at which point we have to make even DEEPER cuts, more drastic action but hey....its all fine because statistically we weren't as bad as our neighbours.

If you are driving in your car and you see a wall in front of you. Do you stop before you hit it? Or do you think "Well the other cars crashed into it....my cars still running. There's no problem!"

moondog · 29/03/2011 21:49

Wook, wake up!!
'A local free school being mooted in a county near here involves at least one person who is renowned locally to have been a very weak teacher. Without proper checks and balances all manner of crazy institutions will sprout up, at the taxpayers (great) expense.'

Tax payers are already carrying the burden of scores of useless teachers who, unless they fiddle with either kids or money, are there for their entire careers, ruining people's lives.

And as for this

'I don't think it is patronising moondog to suggest that there are barriers in some sections of society to prevent people from setting up free schools. It's simply a fact. Just as other things eg lack of time, lack of energy etc may prevent others. '

Yes! Life's a bitch and then you die. How do propose we start levelling it all out? Where does it start and where does it end?

You? You have no talent, so I'll let you off.
You? No time? Never mind
Your childhood was traumatic? Here's an extra five grand.
Your cat has flu? How about some counselling.
And you in the back? Low self esteem you say? Here's an extra few points for your degree.

smallwhitecat · 29/03/2011 21:55

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wook · 29/03/2011 22:12

moondog what are you talking about- WHERE does that happen??? You are making ridiculous assertions. Are you saying that because it is hard to judge a start and end point, there shouldn't even be a start? No attempt to level anything out at all. You are, aren't you. What on earth makes you think thatw ould improve society in any way?

As for the useless teachers, what makes you think I would defend any poor teaching? No child deserves a poor teacher who won't or can't improve. So why ON EARTH should someone who is a poor teacher be allowed to set up their own school?????? What logic is there in that??

Yes smallwhitecat I'm pleased to exemplify the traits of a public sector worker: hard working, committed, dedicated to playing a positive role in society, well educated, and excellent at my job. Grin. You?

londonone · 29/03/2011 22:12

wubbly - schools tend to be known to a fairly large area I am not sure that naming a state school is going to identify you. I suspec however that there was more to the school turning around its results than a simple rebuild. As moondog said it's rather convenient that you feel you can't name it.

ttosca · 29/03/2011 22:15

b Niceguy-

You've shown an utter unwillingness to engage in any arguments whatsoever. Why do you post on a talkboard if you've already made your mind up and don't pay any attention to what anyone else says?

The alternatives to these ideological cuts have been presented over and over again, and yet you continue to ignore that this is even the case - much less engage with them.

Why don't you try something new for a change and try arguing?

wook · 29/03/2011 22:16

smallwhitecat I was not arguing that a useless service is better than no service- but an imperfect service- eg the NHS, a library that can't hold every book in the world, some support for SEN kids in a school, is most certainly better than no service, yes.

wook · 29/03/2011 22:18

What does your direct and extensive experience of schools consist of smallwhitecat
?

moondog · 29/03/2011 22:35

So how 'imperfect' do we let it get then, Wooka before we say 'Woooah, let's stop throwing money at this ting'?

moondog · 29/03/2011 22:36

' I'm pleased to exemplify the traits of a public sector worker: hard working, committed, dedicated to playing a positive role in society, well educated, and excellent at my job. . You?'

Excuse me while I grip my sides in worldless mirth.

jackstarb · 29/03/2011 22:37

ttosca & Niceguy - you should both read this

Response to Hari's article on debt.

ttosca - I'd be particularly interested to see if you can constructively 'engage with the arguments presented' in the article or whether you have your mind set?

wook · 29/03/2011 22:52

moondog what's so funny? I'm excellent at my job and it's a vocation for me. Is that funny, really? Why? Is it so strange that someone would choose public service? Can you not be a hard working, dedicated, committed and excellent teacher, midwife, social worker, policeman/woman, firefighter, ambulance driver, housing officer, meals on wheels driver whatever..? Why would you laugh at the efforts of people who choose public service? How strange.
Does the private sector have the monopoly on these qualities? I think not.
What is worldless mirth? I don't find anything funny about your position at all. Why the contempt? What made you so bitter? How dare you mock the efforts of anyone who works in the public service. You resort to 'mirth' and hollow laughter when faced with the concept of a dedicated, committed, well educated, public servant? How dare you.

londonone · 29/03/2011 22:55

moondog - i thought you worked in the public sector

jackstarb · 29/03/2011 22:56

Hari states;

"As a proportion of GDP, Britain?s national debt has been higher than it is now for 200 of the past 250 years.... Cameron claims that, despite these facts, they need to cut our debt by slashing our spending because the bond markets demand it."

The response -

" .....spot the problem? Yep, it's the idea that the government is planning ? or even suggesting ? that we pay off our debt rapidly. The essential difference between the coalition's fiscal plans and Labour's is nothing to do with debt at all. It's to do with the deficit, aka borrowing. It is the deficit that one side hopes to reduce quicker than the other. As for the debt ? the sum total of all our borrowing that we have yet to pay off ? that would rise by most measures, whichever party was in power."

Hari must know this.

There's plenty more.....

moondog · 29/03/2011 22:57

Steady on Wooka before you disappear up your own fundament in a frenzied celebration of your perceived self worth.