Shocked! - I have been reading about this AV referendum!

[Heroine]

I am really shocked! I have been reading about this AV referendum, and have found out that not only are the people against it largely people with really safe seats (eg Ian Duncan Smith) but also that a) their main campaign is 'It will be really expensive' - but they are saying this by making up an idea that the country will 'have' to buy counting machines (that are only used in America for first past the post) and then adding the cost of the referendum itself which is actually the cost of the local election that the AV question will be added to i.e they are adding the costs in twice and then exaggerating by lying. What's worse is they are peddling this out to voters in the hope they won't check!!!! Whats even worse is that its working!!! see [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358914/Alternative-vote-Yes-campaign-activists-breaking-rules-cold-calling.html#ixzz1Ea4AVMUW this] I mean I do dispair for the stupidity of some of the electorate, but for politicians to use this so brazenly.. grrr

Its bloddy brazen if nothing else and it just shows how much contempt the more establishment and conservative politicians have for the electorate - it just makes me to think they can get away with this BS

I have just also read the DM after my indie over a coffee, and there is an article in there saying that the 'No' people have also been regularly complaining to whoever regulates canvassing (Information Commission perhaps??) to try to block any campaign going ahead for yes... Its just absolutely disgusting and definitely pushing my vote in the way of AV.

I hate the way politicians just put out bollocks figures in order to frighten us, and don't care if they are true or not, its bloody Iraq war all over again.

Please god I hope we get some integrity back into politics soon, its draining me it really is...

Also first past the post does return coalitions and weak majorities - we have had this situation in the 1930s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 2010 under First past the post! I don't think AV destroys the constituency MP or the probability of strong government I think Australia has had fewer hung parliaments than us and they have AV don't they??

I want a system that gives me a chance of getting what I want, Heroine.

The Cat party is running third here but is returning Cat MPs in the surrounding constituencies. It's not a minority party.

I moved a few miles 4 years ago and found myself in a Cat constituency but now the boundary has changed and I'm suddenly in the Dog constituency again. No one gave me a choice about that.

I don't feel that the last election has resulted in wishy washy policies though. Seems to me the change of climate has been pretty radical since the election but the balance of power rests in the paws of a party which is neither fish nor fowl.

I'm trying to decide whether AV will make a similar situation more likely or less.

Also in Chris William and Harriet, in first past the post, Harriet would have won, when 60% of the electorate thought her unsuitable too. what is weird about first past the post is that this can occur:

Harriet - 30%
Chris - 29%
William - 29%
Mike - 12%

Harriet wins despite 72% of the population not voting for her or expressing any leanings either way.

but if mike is eliminated or didn't stand

Harriet - 30%
Chris - 30%
William - 40%

William wins with comfortable majority

or

Harriet - 32%
Chris - 34%
William - 31%

Chris wins - small majority or

Harriet - 42%
Chris - 29%
William - 29%

Harriet increases her majority despite 58% of people expressing no preference for her.

AV just sorts some of this out..

You divvy, BNP is not the only smaller-than-the-big-ones party!!! it could also mean big parties altering in favour of greens or UKIP or libdems, or independents acting on a single important local issue etc.. I don't understand the bit about manifestos since the negotiations here meant that there wree certain policies neither party would compromise on (eg the AV referendum) and that strips parties down to their principles. I don't think all the good policies are jilted in favour of the wishy washy ones - the cuts don't seem like wishy washy politics to me!

Anyway I thought you were against proportional representation and preferred strong consituency links?? I don't want PR that's daft, half a bloke for racism in parliament, two for greens, five for Ukip etc etc seems daft to me, i mean why don't we all text in individual views if we want a parliament split all over the place!

Is alberta just one region of canada? I think that if 90% of consituencies here returned more than 54% of the vote for one party the same thing would happen here under AV or First Past the Post wouldn't it?

Another of my fears is that people who are politically aware are confused by this. There are going to be an awful lot of people who either don't vote in the referendum or who make an arbitrary choice.

The same goes for the next election if it takes place with the AV system. It increases the likelihood of arbitrary choice if people turn out at all but it seems to me more likely that many people just won't vote. Sometimes it's hard enough for a floating voter, or a new voter, to make a single decision without having to decide on preferences - or deciding NOT to state a preference.

It might turn out to be similar to Parish Council elections where you don't have a clue who the candidates are but you feel you ought to use your vote.

woah I forgot the electorate was stupid! silly me

I said that people who are trying hard to understand the issues are struggling and that many people won't try so hard to reach an informed decision. Therefore the likelihood is that more will opt out of making a decision. That's not the same as saying they are stupid.

Very good posts, GiddyPickle. Very informative, shame to see you leaving the debate. I am all for as much PR as we can get, but appreciate your detailed knowledge about the problems with AV and PR.

I agree! It just annoys me when politics comes down to 'whooo the world will end' or doom.. doom.. everything will crash down if you change anything.. doom.. destruction extremist parties this, scaremongering that.. its patently ridiculous!!

Damn. I was enjoying that. It's the sort of debate/information I joined MN for and it has helped me reach a decision.

'It just annoys me when politics comes down to 'whooo the world will end' or doom.. doom.. everything will crash down if you change anything.. doom.. destruction extremist parties this, scaremongering that.. its patently ridiculous!!'

Are you referring to Labour and 'we have only 50 days left to save the planet?" That's why I don't vote Labour.

I hope there will be lots more threads on this over the next few weeks. I certainly don't think anyone is 'divvy'/silly/etc for raising all these interesting points. The tactical implications are uncertain, speculative, difficult to anticipate and formulate. But, then, that is true to quite a large extent with any system, even FPTP, and I really hope that AV can be seen as no less intiutive than FPTP. It is in essence very very simple, and gives us as individuals much more of an input than FPTP.

I don't think that AV is the best choice, but it's somethign along the path to a better system that FPTP. My feeling is that if it is rejected then there won't be another opportunity for change for a very very long time.

I currently live in Canada and we have a minority government here under FPTP. It's the second one too, and really not very representative of Canadian values as far as I can see (very right wing in a country that is in practice liberal and inclusive) but oddly powerful and decidedly undemocratic (for example parliament was suspended when the PM decided it was getting a bit uppity and that this might be a bit embarrassing during the Olympics). This is partly to do with national politics (having a secessionist party in the mix creates odd dynamics).

AV worked OK in the London elections, I don't think that most people found it very difficult in practice. Difficult to say whether or not it wodul help people to engage more in politics, I think that's more down to the behaviour of politicians.