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Politics

CinnabarRed's tax thread

192 replies

CinnabarRed · 20/02/2011 18:18

This may be an act of supreme arrogance on my part - if so, I apologise profusely! But it seems that a lot of people have got questions about tax policy and the morality of taxation, which is my professional field.

So this thread is your chance to ask me any questions you have in this general area. I promise to explain what I know, be honest and clear when I don't know the answer, and distinguish between facts (for which I will provide a reference) and my opinion.

So over to you! I'll be back in the morning to answer any questions posted tonight.

PS: I won't be providing taxation advice to anyone!

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spidookly · 24/03/2011 15:25

:)

What a great thread, thanks Cinnabar, how generous of you to take time to post all of this.

CinnabarRed · 24/03/2011 16:17
Smile

No problem spidookly. I'm just opinionated!

I went to a fascinating meeting with a very senior offical from HMRC today. It was a restricted access meeting, so I can't say too much about it. But a few things that caught my interest were:

  • HMRC have done a lot of work to calculate the tax gap (the difference between the theoretical tax revenue that would be collected if everyone were fully compliant and actual tax revenue). Broad brush, their estimate is in the same ball park as figures estimated by reputable economists. I'm not going to give you the Revenue's precise figure, because it would be a shabby thing to do, but most economists put it at between £35bn and £50bn per annum. Certainly not £120bn +, which is the figure the more hysterical like to bandy around.
  • Of the total tax gap about a quarter is lost through avoidance (e.g. legal but unpalable tax loopholes); way more than half through deliberate (illegal) evasion; and the rest through negligence and organised criminal activity.
  • The vast majority of evasion is by small businesses and self-employed sole traders. Less than a tenth is from megaweathy people with offshore undeclared bank accounts.
  • research shows that once a small business is established, it decides very quickly (within the first six months of trading) whether it's going to be honest or fraudulent with the tax man. Once a decision has been made to be fraudulent, very few go back to compliance.
  • Happily, three quarters of tax payers genuinely want to be tax complaint and over half actually are. The rest need more help from HMRC to get their taxes right, especially around one-off events such as starting a business.
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spidookly · 24/03/2011 16:24

I have a question, well a couple of related questions:

You read all the time that HMRC are no match for private sector tax experts (presumably like yourself) because the pay is too low to attract the best and so it is always a David and Goliath battle. In your experience, how true is this? And if it is true, how could it be remedied?

What impact do you think cuts are going to have on HMRC staffing levels, and what is the likely effect on HMRC's ability to ensure that as much tax as possible (of what is due obviously) is being paid?

CinnabarRed · 24/03/2011 16:41

In my opinion and experience, the best at HMRC are top flight. Smart, pragmatic, commercial, intelligent, creative. No different, in fact from the better private sector tax experts. The issue is that the average HMRC employee is, frankly, not on a par with the average private sector tax person.

Now, that doesn't matter as much as you might think, because the vast majority of taxpayers are small businesses who aren't interested, and don't have the resources, to get involved in tax planning. So the mismatch is smaller than it first appears.

It was an issue when average Inspectors came up against the cream of the private sector. However, HMRC and the Treasury have been smart on how they counter this.

First, they introduced the disclosure rules. They say that if someone in the private sector comes up with a cute tax planning scheme then by law they have to disclose details of how it works to HMRC within a very short time frame - think days rather than weeks. That means that HMRC can very quickly act to counter avoidance by changing the tax legislation.

Secondly, they have implemented a new policy of trust and transparency between HMRC and big business/high net worth individuals. Each taxpayer in the programme has been assigned a risk rating by HMRC, and believe me it's a rigerous process. A low risk rating means HMRC have reviewed your affairs, accept that you're compliant and will apply a light touch in dealing with you. A high risk rating means HMRC will pay you far more attention, and not in a good way. The carrot for tax payers is that where there are areas of genuine uncertainty over how the law should be applied (which crops up all the time, especially with complex companies which are generally defined as the largest 10,000) then HMRC will help them come to a fair and commercial agreement.

Thirdly, HMRC have spent a lot of time and effort identifying risk triggers across all taxpayers (not just big business/HNWI). They're focussing their efforts far better and getting results to prove it.

HMRC, like most of the 103 departments, are facing spending cuts of 25%. However, unlike the rest they're getting 10% back specifically to tackle avoidance and evasion. So their actual cut is only 15%. Clearly it will effect headcount.

HMRC thinks that it can cope with most of this through efficiency savings (e.g. increased automation, take effort away from the compliant majority and focus it on evaders/avoiders/those who want to be compliant but need more help). I think that there are undoubtedly efficiency savings to be made, but I'm sceptical that it there's enough slack in the system than it will absorb all of the pain.

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spidookly · 24/03/2011 17:17

Very interesting, thank you :)

CinnabarRed · 24/03/2011 17:20

Anytime. I keep an eye on this thread so post if you have any more questions.

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scaryteacher · 25/03/2011 18:31

What do you think about the plan mooted by the Belgian authorities to tax those working in Belgium (who are UK residents for tax purposes and PAYE) on all their non-Belgian income?

meditrina · 25/03/2011 18:59

Small spotter-type question: how can the EU force compliance on Jersey, when the Channel Islands are not part of EU?

CinnabarRed · 25/03/2011 21:35

Meditrina: the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are in an odd position when it comes to taxation. They're not in the EU for indirect tax purposes (i.e. VAT and customs duties); they are within the scope of the EU Code of Conduct for Taxation, which is the enforcement mechanism that I think you're referring to, presumably in the context of their 0/10 regimes.

As an aside, the EU puts pressure for tax compliance on a number of non-EU jurisdictions, often most successfully. Hence the proposal that Swiss banks will levy withholding tax on interest paid to individuals outside Switzerland, and Lichtenstein's new transparency.

ScaryTeacher: this isn't something I know anything about. Let me look into it and get back to you. My immediate reaction is that the UK-Belgian double tax treaty would give one nation or the other primary taxation rights, so I'd be surprised if anyone suffered tax in both countries in practice.

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meditrina · 25/03/2011 21:39

Thanks!

scaryteacher · 25/03/2011 22:04

Thanks Cinnabar - it was mentioned the other day, and would affect all those who are employed by HMG here in Belgium, both UK Forces and civil servants. I was a bit [hmm} as there is the double taxation treaty, and given dh pays a fair whack of UK tax, I am unwilling to pay twice!!

Belgium is verging on broke however, so I think any ruse to raise funds will be looked at, especially as they seem no nearer to establishing a government, and I think their credit rating will soon be downgraded.

CinnabarRed · 26/03/2011 07:18

Hi Scaryteacher (are you, BTW?), as I say, I'm not great on expat taxation. I'll do some digging to find out exactly what's been proposed.

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CinnabarRed · 26/03/2011 07:38

Hi Scaryteacher (are you, BTW?), as I say, I'm not great on expat taxation. I'll do some digging to find out exactly what's been proposed.

Am I right in understanding that you and DH are UK expats currently living and working in Belgium?

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TorianaTollywobbles · 26/03/2011 18:41

Cinnabar

I am interested in your comment above that less than a tenth of tax evasion is done by wealthy people with offshore bank accounts.

HMRC is looking to target the 'affluent' sector much more over the next few years as part of its compliance strategy.

How successful is this likely to be?

CinnabarRed · 26/03/2011 20:02

Reasonably successful. For two reasons. First, it's getting easier and easier for HMRC to get information from overseas tax authorities and/or institutions such as banks, so it will take relatively little manpower to catch evaders. Secondly, there may be relatively few affluent evaders but each one will owe a staggering amount of tax (and interest and penalties) when caught. So 1 caught affluent evader will generate a far greater yield than 1 caught small time evader, and probably for less effort. Now the floodgates of information from overseas are open, the affluent are the low hanging fruit.

Have you ever heard the story of how Lester Piggott was caught for tax evasion? The Revenue started investigating his affairs, realised that he wasn't complying, but couldn't prove that it was deliberate (he was playing the old "I'm just a simple jockey, sir, I don't understand numbers" card for all he was worth). So the Revenue cut a reasonable deal with him and he paid his tax bill with a cheque from an offshore account he hadn't bothered to mention before! Either staggeringly arrogant or staggeringly stupid. That's why they threw the book at him: if he'd come clean I doubt he would have got prison time.

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TorianaTollywobbles · 26/03/2011 20:14

Thanks for answering my question Cinnabar,

Given that it is going to be the 'average' HMRC employee who is going to be looking at these cases, and that the average HMRC employee is not on a par with the average private sector employee, hopefully the information from overseas will make it easier!

CinnabarRed · 26/03/2011 22:25

It won't be 'average' HMRC employees doing the investigations though. It will be the brightest and the best. With assistance, where appropriate from the police, CPS, criminal lawyers, forensic accountants and the like.

I hate evaders. I hope they get the book thrown at them.

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CinnabarRed · 26/03/2011 22:27

Oh, and the private sector won't touch evaders with a barge pole. The most we will do is tell evaders how to turn themselves in. In fact, we have a legal obligation to inform on evaders under anti-money laundering regulations and the Proceeds Of Crime Act.

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nottirednow · 27/03/2011 11:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

scaryteacher · 27/03/2011 13:36

Cinnabar - dh HM Forces, so all income PAYE from HMG, bar house rental, no profits from this at all (mortgage interest and other write offs exceed rent). I do some work in Belgium, but less than is taxable; I do examining in the UK, but again, PAYE and tax return to claim refund as under taxable threshold. My half of income from rent also not taxed for same reason as dh.

CinnabarRed · 28/03/2011 11:59

Hi Scaryteacher. I've spoken to my expat tax specialist colleagues. They haven't heard anything about the changes in Belgium, but are contacting their opposite numbers in our Belgian practice.

Obviously I can't give you tax advice because I don't know enough about your circumstances. However the UK/Belgium double tax treaty does make it crystal clear that only the UK has taxing rights over income from HMG (which I assume makes up the majority of your income as couple). As your rental income doesn't make a profit and your other income is below the taxable threshold I'd hope that you won't suffer any additional taxation.

I'll keep my ear to the ground and let you know if I hear anything more.

All the best.

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CinnabarRed · 28/03/2011 12:26

Hi nottirednow.

There's a lot in your post. I'm going to start answering your individual points and hope they add up to a coherent reply.

"The structural deficit needs to be dealt with - and that involves dealing with the issues related to an aging population."

I agree that the structural deficit needs to be dealt with. I'm not sure I agree that it's due to an aging population. I think that it's as much to do with persistent overspending in the good years from Brown (i.e. we didn't put money aside for a rainy day in the boom, but instead increased public spending at a faster rate than tax revenues went up). I'm a left wing Keynesian when it comes to economics, but the whole point of Keynesian theory is that public sector spending should only prop up the economy when the private sector can't.

As well as rebalancing the economy in terms of industries (which I'll discuss below) we also need to rebalance in terms of private sector/public sector/consumer. Last week the independent Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecast that household spending would rise by an average of 1.2% over each of the next three years. This is less than half the rate of growth seen in the decade before the credit crunch, when consumer spending was the most significant driver for growth.

Over the coming years consumer and government are likely to shrink as a share of the UK economy. Slower growth in consumer spending and an outright contraction in government spending are the symptoms of a rebalancing of UK growth. The government's hope is that much of the slack will be taken up by a revitalised private sector. The Chancellor's twin aims are to shrink the deficit and to raise rates of return on capital.

A higher return on capital increases the incentive for firms to expand, take on new people and invest. The good news is that corporate profitability has rebounded strongly in the last year. On average, profits for FTSE350 companies rose by 37% last year. Over the next three years, the OBR expects corporate profits to grow far faster than wages. This would spell a rise in companies' share of GDP and a decline in consumers' share of GDP.

The OBR is also forecasting a marked shift in activity towards exports and capital spending. Over the next three years the OBR expects exports and business investment to rise by an average of 8% a year - almost twice the pre-recessionary trend rate.

The latest jobs data offer some evidence of rebalancing in action. In the last year 132,000 job losses in the public sector have been more than offset by the creation of 428,000 jobs in the private sector. Rebalancing the UK economy means a desynchronised recovery, one in which the government and consumer spending take a back seat and the corporate sector thrives.

"This government have finally done something about that by increasing pension age but they are still devoting more attention to those of working age and imposing higher cuts on them. That is driven by ideology not economics."

The thing about the pensions time bomb, though, is that we're not paying out all that much to pensioners now (relative to tax income). So there's not much room for the Chancellor to manoeuvre when it comes to pensions - he can only make savings in areas where we're currently "overspending" - however you define that. The pensions time bomb is going to be a massive issue in 20 years, as the population ages and we have more people retire and fewer people working. But it's not a massive issue right now.

"We have a substantial number of unemployed young people in this country. The working population will increase if we postpone retirement and/or get young people into work. However there has to be work for them and they have to have appropriate training for it. The tories under Margaret Thatcher allowed a decling in manufacturing and permitted the heavy current reliance on the financial sector. Our education system fails to turn out enough employable young people."

I agree almost entirely. We really need to do something about youth unemployment. I do think that the announcement in the Budget about a massive (400%?) increase in apprenticeships and vocational training is the right way to go. I'm not really qualified to judge whether it's enough, but as a matter of common sense it's obvious to me that the number of graduates we're currently producing from our universities isn't matching what the economy needs.

FWIW, the part I don't agree with is that we're overreliant on financial services. As a sector, it's around the same size as manufacturing and smaller than oil and gas. FS and oil are the two sectors paying the majority of tax in the UK. But on the other hand there's no harm in promoting manufacturing and high tech industries, which the Chancellor did in the Budget.

"Finally the question - those with money often pay lower rates of tax than those on low incomes. This may be perfectly legal but is perceived as unjust and contributes to unrest in society. We allow a massive difference in remuneration between those engaged in financial services and others. This encourages the brightest and best into financial services. We also allow massive profits to be made from property transactions, with the profits being passed through various offshore accounts. I don't know how we deal with this - it is an international problem. Do you have any suggestions?"

As it happens, the main area where financial services employees make tax savings is by receiving remuneration in the form of shares rather than cash. Which are approved by HMRC and the government, on the grounds that it alings the interests of employees and shareholders.

The people who do take the piss are the private equity partners and hedge funds. This is because they receive their profits in the form of capital (taxable at 10% or less) rather than income (taxable at 50%). If I were the Chancellor I'd start taking a pop at them. Not enough to drive them offshore, but perhaps doubling their tax rate to 20%. I've said it before on this thread, but I really dislike the attitude of some private equity partners.

Property transactions aren't a big deal at the moment because of the depressed property market. The main reasons deals are structured offshore is to avoid stamp duty land tax. Stamp duty is a very odd tax, and one that is almost unique to the UK. Very, very few other countries have a tax on documents. Stampo duty raised a paltry £8bn last year (total tax take was £410bn) and I'd be inclined not to bother once the deficit's under control again.

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CinnabarRed · 28/03/2011 12:43

Oh, and may I ask nottirednow where you were redirected from?

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scaryteacher · 28/03/2011 13:38

Thanks Cinnabar - the Belgian tax thing is being discussed at high levels in the HQ where dh works.

No Belgian income at all - all UK, apart from invigilating exams, which gives me about 200 euro pa. Not enough for anyone to worry about!

Stamp duty - interesting - in Belgium there seems to be VAT on buying a house, which is more than stamp duty, so perhaps we should be grateful for small mercies!

slhilly · 28/03/2011 14:25

Have just read my way through this v interesting thread. A way back, someone asserted that Barclays and HSBC have not called on any government support at all. That is not really true in either letter or spirit:

  • Letter: Barclays (and I think HSBC) have used the BoE's special liquidity scheme to fund loans
  • Spirit: Barclays and HSBC have been protected from the bad debts they would otherwise have incurred through lending to those banks that were bailed out. They have also been protected from the loss of consumer, customer and investor confidence in them that would have occurred if the government had not bailed out NR, RBS, Lloyds etc.