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Politics

What, if anything, would public sector mass walk-outs acheive?

108 replies

Chil1234 · 28/01/2011 08:08

That's it really. IMHO, very little bar a reduction in public sympathy and even worse public services for those who use and/or need them.

OP posts:
VivaLeBeaver · 30/01/2011 10:12

As a public sector worker (front line NHS) I agree that tehre needs to be cuts. I agree we need to accept that our standard of living will fall. I have already, down from 4 days a week to 3 days a week and a pay freeze for the next 2 years.

However our trust that needs to save £30million next financial year has just advertised 10+ posts that are "deputy director of this, deputy director of that". All on 90k a year salaries. Its taking the piss when we're not even allowed paper clips or staples on the ward as we can't afford them.

EdgarAleNPie · 30/01/2011 10:13

here it is

and i quote -

The difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£554 per week) and the private sector (£473 per week) widened over the year to April 2010, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.0 per cent respectively.

my private sector pension lost 85% of its value last year.

got2bequackers · 30/01/2011 10:15

I for one dont expect the goverment to cave. But i do expect that individual public sector employers to admit we cant do everything we used to. Not to expect us to do it all for less and to treat staff better. Its not all about the cuts. For me it is about the way the cuts are being handled

EditedforClarity · 30/01/2011 10:23

Why do these threads always have to come down to public v private?

We're all being shafted.

siasl · 30/01/2011 10:41

EdgarAleNPie, completely agree

When public sector pay was less than private sector pay, public sector unions complained the public sector workers were poorly paid.

Now that public sector pay is 20% higher than private sector pay, the same unions argue public sector employees are poorly paid but the 20% difference is due to the public sector being better qualified!

The fact that anyone in the public sector gets a final salary pension is a total disgrace (though thankfully not all do anymore). The UK unfunded pension deficit is £3.8bn, almost 4 times the national debt. Private sector workers take risk on their defined contributions pensions - returns vary with the markets - and are by definition fully funded. Our children won't have to pay for their pensions.

Defined benefit final salary pensions have no risk attached, have a payout based on final salary (average earning over career £50k but if final salary is £100k get pension on £100k!), and are unfunded since they are basically unhedgeable. Why should my DC and unborn child be in debt and be taxed more heavily to pay such a overly generous pension.

I would happily take a 50% pay cut to get my hands on such a pension.

Alibabaandthe40nappies · 30/01/2011 11:24

A lot of what is being described as happening in the public sector has been happening in the private sector for years though.

No payrises

Recruitment freezes

No backfill for staff that leave, or for maternity cover

Pension benefits cut and downgraded, even for staff who are only a year or two away from retirement

Yes there is competition, in theory, but when no-one in your sector is hiring then that vanishes too.

I know a lot of people who work in the public sector, including my own parents. Most work incredibly hard, but then there are many that don't.
Someone who I used to be friends with worked for the NHS in a non-clerical role. She had her job description pinned up on her notice-board at work, and every piece of work that she was asked to do, she would check against her job description. If it didn't match, she would refuse to do it and e-mail her union rep. to complain. And then sit at her desk all day making phonecalls. All the while knowing she couldn't be touched because she was doing everything on her job description, her job was secure and her pension happily accruing.
Her whole department worked like that, with the exception of a couple of people who kept things ticking over.
Stories like that are the reason that public sector employees won't have much sympathy if they strike.

Alibabaandthe40nappies · 30/01/2011 11:24

^

that should be non-clinical role

EdgarAleNPie · 30/01/2011 11:58

Why do these threads always have to come down to public v private?

We're all being shafted.

although i agree with you on the last point, in answer to the first - because people make false claims. they say the public sector is poorly paid. it isn't. they say it demands you work for free - well it does, but so does the private sector.

it comes down to prejudice -

public sector workers imagine working in the private sector, doing 9-5 and then buggering off home on friday to enjoy the weekend.
Private sector workers may imagine the public sector workers are not managed as closely, do not, therefore, try as hard, enjoy secure employment and good benefits and retire on fat pensions.

both generalisations will be true for some, some will have stats to back them up.

IRL it is very much an individual matter about job type, location, personality of your line manager...

erebus · 30/01/2011 14:19

I work at a grade defined as Band 6 in the NHS- my choice. I have 25 years of experience and the 'promotional' runs on the board to prove my ability and skill. I am part of a small team that runs 3 of the most expensive bits of kit in the hospital. I provide 24 hour cover in a 1:6 rotation.

If I were 2 years qualified, a Band 5, I could go and work in the local private hospital where I would get a £5,000 a year- yes, I wrote that correctly!- pay rise, rising to £10,000 after 3 years service, plus employer pension contributions. The would be no on call whatsoever, and my training needs would be identified and funded. Most of my colleagues would be part-time and semi-retired, somewhat set in their ways and would have chosen to go private because it's way less busy and stressful than an NHS hospital (I'd spend a fair bit of my time filing, in fact!- folders, if not my nails...). All my 'clients' will have been self-selected via wealth, medically selected as posing few risk complications; and would be packed into the back of an NHS ambulance should anything unforeseen happen.

How then am I in any way being paid '20% more' that that band 5 in the private sector?

You can come back and tell me of someone you know who sits on their public rear all day and gets paid a fortune.

That is the nature of the beast, isn't it? There will always be perceived exceptions.

Public sector pay was was always historically lower than their private counterparts' for a number of reasons:

1-Many 'public' jobs (think social care, health etc) are regarded as vocations; the sort of people drawn to them wouldn't necessarily put wealth accrual as number one career ambition.

2-Most are women who historically accept lower rates of pay.

3-Job security and pension were traded against pay.

4-'Perks' included free, cleaned uniforms, subsidised meals and parking.

5-The government accepted that NHS workers felt they were not morally in a position to strike therefore there was an agreement that the pay bargaining bodies would be treated more sympathetically.

However:
1- The Public demanded a higher level of qualification from its NHS staff. Degrees replaced diplomas; DCs with perhaps a higher sense of entitlement and A levels entered the NHS (not necessarily a bad thing!); Society as a whole became more me, me, me (think Thatcher)

2- More men appeared in the work force, drawn by better pay and higher technical and professional requirements.

3- Job security is disappearing fast. The new pension deal is considerably less 'generous' than before, like most people's.

4- All these 'perks' are long gone! We pay market rates.

5- The governmental gloves are well and truly off, so is it any wonder that the NHS trades unions recognise that they feel forced to countenance the same tactics as any other industrial group?

As for: (Q: )
"The fact that anyone in the public sector gets a final salary pension is a total disgrace (though thankfully not all do any more)". Why?

If you'd accepted lower pay for your working life, based on a future pension calculated on the above, why shouldn't you expect them to deliver when the day came? Don't forget that the vast majority of public sector workers are on pretty much minimum wage.

And "I would happily take a 50% pay cut to get my hands on such a pension." - but what if the year before you were due to collect that pension, suddenly the rules changed? Would you still give 50% of your current salary based on that possibility?

Niceguy2 · 30/01/2011 15:10

At the end of the day, if the economy was solid, we weren't up to our eyeballs in debt then I'd have every sympathy for the public sector to feel aggrieved.

But the economy is a basket case, our nation's finances managed for the last decade plus by coco the clown. The only countries with a worse debt ratio than ours are the likes of Afghanistan & Iraq. We're doing a tiny bit better than Iceland & Ireland so there's small comfort there.

So in that context, sorry we just cannot afford so many public servants anymore. It's not about ideology or public vs private. It boils down to a simple truth.

Spending > income = not good.

LaydeeC · 30/01/2011 15:58

^^ so if we can't afford so many public servants anymore, are the general public going to accept that there will be a drop in service provision.
I read earlier of a woman who was 'shocked' that her local authority told her to carry a torch because three lights in her street were not working. Do me a favour. People will need to get used to doing more for themselves and to lower standards and charters when the cuts have taken their toll.
In my department, I know of two people who would be defined as 'slackers'. That actually doesn't mean that they don't do their job - they do. But they do no more. The rest of us keep on doing more and more. Who are the fools?
I am fed up of people being described as clockwatchers etc when they actually do their job. Why should employers expect so much free overtime? Because they hold the silent threat of job losses over our heads thats why.
And to come back to the gold plated pension. Alibaba, you should be ashamed of yourself. I entered a contract with a defined pension at the end of it. I am not rich, I do not lead a luxurious lifestyle. I love my job in the PS and I am very good at it. My pay is not high. My pension has been eroded and eroded over the years. The terms of the contract keep changing and not in my favour. I will be lucky to retire on a pension of more than £5000 a year. I can't top this up as I can't afford to, I can't work longer hours as I have a disabled child. If you would give up half your salary for a 'gold plated pension', do it. Get a job in the public sector - teaching, policing, nursing, firefighting, social work, local authority - it's not like there isn't a choice of careers is it and, after all, they are all cushy numbers aren't they.
Sheesh.

gaelicsheep · 30/01/2011 16:21

"Now that public sector pay is 20% higher than private sector pay". Can you post figures/links to the wide ranging study that backs up that statement please siasl? Thanks.

gaelicsheep · 30/01/2011 16:24

Siasl again - local authority pensions are funded. They cost the taxpayer nothing but the initial employers' contribution.

gaelicsheep · 30/01/2011 16:26

You know what is worst of all about this thread? The sour grapes. "I have it bad too so go screw yourselves" - that's what it boils down to. Never mind that some of these people are the ones who might save your life one day (if they still have a job).

Alibabaandthe40nappies · 30/01/2011 17:21

Why should I be ashamed of myself? I didn't say anything about pensions? Confused

I'm well aware of all the problems with public sector pensions, as I said both my parents were public sector workers their whole lives.

gaelicsheep - it is sour grapes, and a lot of that has to be laid at the door of the media. If you read through this thread, the kind of gold-plated pensions that people associate with the public sector are actually only available to a select few at the very top of the paygrades/career ladder.
And there are several references here to bankers etc as if they are representative of the private sector. They aren't.

In reality, the experiences of private and public sector workers on average salaries are probably very similar. More work, less pay, less security and feeling vastly under-appreciated.

Niceguy2 · 30/01/2011 21:02

are the general public going to accept that there will be a drop in service provision.

GrimmaTheNome · 30/01/2011 21:19

What, if anything, would public sector mass walk-outs acheive?

Bugger the country's credit rating, most probably. Which would make getting out of this hole even harder.

We're all being shafted.

Wrong tense. We have already been shafted (some have done it to themselves, most hapless victims).

VivaLeBeaver · 30/01/2011 21:47

"are the general public going to accept that there will be a drop in service provision.

Niceguy2 · 30/01/2011 22:08

Yes its unfortunate. A good mate of mine is a nurse in A&E so I have a good idea of what goes on.

But there are knobheads to deal with in all jobs. Some more than others.

pointydug · 30/01/2011 22:21

"it's a supporting role in the country which is paid for through taxes of the private sector."

Much of the public sector is not performing a supporting role. And it is not just funded by private sector taxes. SO that doesn't seem to be a very good description at all.

gaelicsheep · 30/01/2011 22:28

You know what is also really telling. Almost without exception people who admit they work in the private sector think that we are moaning about pay and conditions, and moan at us back. The fact that many public sector workers are bemoaning the fact that they are unable to do the jobs they trained for seems to fall on deaf ears. I also have not read anything comparable from private sector workers. So either you don't care as long as you get paid, or you don't in fact have the same problems.

newwave · 30/01/2011 22:29

Yes its unfortunate. A good mate of mine is a nurse in A&E so I have a good idea of what goes on.

But there are knobheads to deal with in all jobs. Some more than others.

NG2 that no way to talk about Lansley :o and it's going to get worse under the Tories.

Niceguy2 · 30/01/2011 22:35

Much of the public sector is not performing a supporting role. And it is not just funded by private sector taxes. SO that doesn't seem to be a very good description at all.

Alibabaandthe40nappies · 30/01/2011 22:45

gaelic - that has never happened to me, but it was common in the organisation I used to work in - a huge blue chip company and one of the most recognised brands in the world.
Whenever there was a wave of redundancy, or jobs were being outsourced there would be an exercise to 'relocate' as many of the staff as possible into other jobs. Regardless of whether they were suitable or not.

I'm sure a lot of it was motivated by how much money it would have cost to make these people redundant, but shoving someone with 20 years+ experience into a much more junior role (that they incidentally couldn't even do effectively) wasn't unusual at all.

Anyway, I'm not saying that things aren't dreadful atm for public sector workers - I know they are. I just feel that the way the unions are talking, and the possibility of huge strikes etc does nothing to help the situation, and may well make things much worse.

newwave · 30/01/2011 22:48

Alibaba, do you think the public sector workers should lie down and be walked all over?.

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