Privatisation: can anyone give me an example of where it's really worked well?

[WinkyWinkola]

I mean, the railways were privatised and the government still subsidises the railway companies so they can pay their shareholders their dividends. Consumers however pay soaring fares and suffer poor quality service.

The water companies were privatised and they make enormous profits without investing in infrastructure.

The hospitals outsource their cleaning staff and the incidences of disease rises and the standards of cleanliness decline.

There never seems to be state of true capitalist competition in these areas anyway.

I just don't see how privatisation benefits any one really. One cannot be proud of poor standards and a big profit, surely?

water utilities and the rail franchise operators do actually have to invest in their systems.
The rates they can charge are regulated.
Water in particular is very low profit, most of the returns just pay off the funding they get from bondholders.
now, if you want a really bad example - look no further than Metronet and Tubelines, which ran the Tube lines for a while. It cost an estimated £450M just to get the contracts awarded. Total disaster. Metronet cost another couple hundred million pounds when it had to be wound up.

For an example, see the PC market. The price of a basic PC has gone down by a factor of about 10 in the last 20 years - and I would argue that is precisely because companies like Dell, HP, and IBM compete vigorously with each other.

You may have a point regarding PC's although having them built by cheap labour in the developing world rather that in Japan and the USA may be a factor as well.

Here's another one for you.

Little Anne (6 years old) have a terminal disease, there is however a new treatment available in the USA but will cost £150K, who gets to say if it will be paid for out of the GP's budget, The GP's management company who will see it's profits hit, The
Doctor or the parents.

I know this happens now but this would be far more close and personal, if it was my child i would rip someones head off if the treatment was refused because I would know who was refusing.

If we are as you say privatising the NHS then can I expect the level and convenience of treatment that any other private patient gets, private rooms etc.

Overall picture? Blimey. The overall picture is people have died and communities and environments have been ruined because BP bosses had (and probably still have) an economic model that defines capitalism as 'make money quick and hope someone else cleans up the muck we leave behind'.

As for competition in the NHS, yeah, right. What people want when they are ill is to go on some kind of healthcare version of a price comparison website and shop around trying to work out what healthcare they need and from what kind of professional in which kind of hospital or clinic...

Now, nobody is talking about evil shareholders at all.

What people are questioning is the validity of privatisation when it has in the past for many formerly state owned 'companies', meant a much poorer more expensive service for the consumer.

Nothing to do with evil shareholders unless of course they happily take government subsidies as part of their dividend then they are immensely hypocritical.

But I guess what I'm seeking is some sort of morality and sense of duty in business. Perhaps it doesn't exist when the bottom line is all that matters.

That is what scare me about privatisation. That is why I feel that companies need regulating because given half a chance they'll pollute half the world's waters and try and get away with it. And rip off consumers without even caring.

What is it with the instinct to rip people off all the time? To me it's not a sound business instinct at all.

And newwave, competition clearly does drive down prices.

The problem is that true competition doesn't actually exist in many sectors that have been privatised or are proposed to be privatised.

Thus it's a nonsense.

You only need to look at American gas extraction companies and the pollution they have caused when given free reign and told the clean water act does not apply to them by G W Bush.

Big companies in the main are not socialy aware.

The law needs to be changed so that shareholder value is not the ONLY thing that amtters.

Winky. The problem is that they buy each other out leading to a few companies who if truth be told collude to fix prices.

You only have to look at energy prices going up in near tandem from each supplier to see that is true.

Newwave DQ wasn't free - I recall it being 50p for up to 3 numbers. BT claimed they still made a loss on it and wanted to charge more - so Ofcom opened it up to competition.

"Big companies in the main are not socialy aware"

No, no. Big companies in the main choose not to be socially aware.

Jack, it was until the privatisation of BT and for sometime after. I said it was until someone decided there was a profit to be made.

It sticks in my mind because my company sent a message saying please avoid using the directory of enquiries now they are charging, sorry I cant remember the date though.

Jack, it was until the privatisation of BT and for sometime after. I said it was until someone decided there was a profit to be made.

It sticks in my mind because my company sent a message saying please avoid using the directory of enquiries now they are charging, sorry I cant remember the date though.

WinkyWinkola Oh, I agree entirely - there has to be genuine competition. That is the big problem with the way the railways were privatised.

There is a strong argument that in such situations, there shouldn't be a privatisation at all, but ministers shouldn't run things either - probably a quango, or co-operative, or something.

There is certainly plenty of competition amongst medical suppliers though. To me, the NHS seems ripe for privatisation.

Sorry - I haven't sussed adding links properly, but this article might be of interest.

hbr.org/2011/01/the-big-idea-creating-shared-value/ar/1

I am against most of the privatisation, and against what will be done to the Royal Mail. It will create a worse service for us, and we will pay through the nose, and the profits will not go to the people. The NI water board had massive problems due to persistent lack of investment in modernising the Victorian system.

But let's not forget that one of the reasons that we have to privatise is because of the EU's competition charter. They are against state subsidies, and want Europe wide competition.

LFN/Winky.

I would like to see the larger stores such as Tesco and sainsbury only being allowsed a certain number of stores or percentage of the market this would allow other players and would increase competition, same with the banks.

I would also like to see legal penalties for screwing up a customer such as in my case if you dont deliver on the day you say I would be entitled to a refund of say 15% of the cost of the item. Or if you screw up my standing orders i can claim £100 as compensation.

LFN how about you opinion on my "Anne" question and we all being "private" patients. Not looking for a fight just your opinion, from the other side of the political divide as it were.

'Not looking for a fight' what on earth has come over you? Are you alright?

newwave I agree that there will be massive problems with rare, expensive conditions - but my point is, there are massive problems already!

The truth is slowly dawning on most of the Western world that we will get good basic healthcare, but we simply won't treated for rare conditions because the treatments are too expensive.

That is going to happen however the healthcare is funded (taxpayer, insurance, co-payment, whatever) or however the healthcare is delivered (state-run hospitals, co-operative hospitals, private hospitals, or whatever).

Rationing is a way of life for the foreseeable future. It's happening everywhere on the planet, and it's going to happen more and more.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing systemically, although it is obviously heartbreaking for those denied treatment. It means that we get more and more research into new medicines and treatments, and prices for existing medicines and treatments become cheaper and cheaper.

LFN, I can just see the headlines.

DOCTOR PATEL REFUSES SIX YEAR OLD GIRL LIFE SAVING TREATMENT.

Or.

BIG-CORP INTERNATIONAL THE USA COMPANY WHO MANAGE OF LARGE GROUP OF PRACTISES, SAYS WE CANT AFFORD TO SAVE SIX YEAR OLD ANNES LIFE.

There will be trouble ahead because the refuser is easy to identify.

'Not looking for a fight' what on earth has come over you? Are you alright?

Most of you are far to east to best in a "fight" :o

Sounds like you've thrown the towel in, realised the error of your ways, and are determined to make amends by becoming an enthusiastic Tory supporter, championing the Big Society. I knew that would happen, it was just a matter of time until you saw things clearly.

I really don't understand.

So in this country privatisation = bad. Why? because evil companies make profits. Money which they could otherwise simply be spending on improving their service....right?

So instead I guess the alternate argument would be to nationalise said companies?

Who'd be in charge then? Our lovely MP's who are all so intelligent, honest and trustworthy right?

They always act with our best interests at heart don't they and are of course experts in running gas companies, train companies, telecoms, water, electricity?

Life was great when everything was nationalised wasn't it? British Rail was just the model of efficiency yes? BT connected you in hours, not weeks yes?

FFS, talk about deluded.

'Not looking for a fight' what on earth has come over you? Are you alright?

Claig is it getting cold in here, must be hell freezing over. :o

Doh

Sounds like you've thrown the towel in, realised the error of your ways, and are determined to make amends by becoming an enthusiastic Tory supporter, championing the Big Society. I knew that would happen, it was just a matter of time until you saw things clearly.

Claig is it getting cold in here, must be hell freezing over. :o

'FFS, talk about deluded.'
I take it you are referring to newwave.