The Elderly. Try and put yourself into their shoes.

[ivanhoe]

You have paid into the system all your working life, and for a lot less money than today, and all the Government can pay you back is a £97 a week State pension.

Try and put yourself in their shoes.

How would you "feel" about this ?

Now forget the age you are, put yourself in the position of an elderly person knowing you have worked hard all your lives payng into the system.

How do you "feel" ?

////////So if you agree that there will be no state pension for my generation, then how can it possibly be "fair" for us to be paying in and in and in and in and ultimately never getting anything back?

I pay into a private pension, I can ill-afford to do so, but I do it anyway.////////

Another aspect of this is the basic insecurity and expense of the private pension, I bring to mind Northern Rock so years ago.

The role of the State in Britain is demonised, there is no doubt of this, and our grandparents are on the receiving end of this demonisation via their low State pension.

Here's some more information for you all. And the reason they refuse to claim is being the system humiliates them.

Britain's pensioners are missing out on an estimated £5.4 billion in unclaimed benefits each year.

The National Insurance fund system has a ?surplus? of ?£40 billion?, but is being used by the government for things it was not intended for.

Means testing is costing around 10 times more to administer, than a decent State pension linked to national average wages would cost.

It costs rough £5 per person per pensioner to pay pensioners a decent State pension, and it costs £54 per person per pensioners to run and administer the means test system our elderly / older people have to endure for state handouts.

Add all this information to the money we spend on overseas wars, illegal or otherwise, plus money that upholds third world countries.

Plus we send £50 plus million every day as our funding into the EU.

Im saying that we could easily pay out a decent State pension for our elderly people, without even increasing taxes.

The people I genuinely feel sorry for are the ones who were sold the 'cradle to grave' myth in the 1940's & 50's, saved nothing and then found themselves in difficulties. But younger people... those born post 1960... have, for the last 30+ years, had every opportunity not to fall into the same trap.

You don't mean Northern Rock btw... the (often elderly) savers at Northern Rock queued up patiently enough to transfer (often not insubstantial) funds to other banks. The Equitable Life customers had the worst experience but, even there, one case does not mean we should abandon private pensions as a lost cause.

//////Oh God//////Not you again/////

//////Your ideas are not wrong but they are idealistic//////

So, in your later years you could so easily find yourself having lost everything, there are no securities in life, all plans can so easily go wrong.

So I see you lying there in the gutter begging for money, and I looked down at you and I say this.

You expect me to give you money, you are being very idealistic there arent you.

////////The people I genuinely feel sorry for are the ones who were sold the 'cradle to grave' myth in the 1940's & 50's, saved nothing and then found themselves in difficulties. But younger people... those born post 1960... have, for the last 30+ years, had every opportunity not to fall into the same trap.

You don't mean Northern Rock btw... the (often elderly) savers at Northern Rock queued up patiently enough to transfer (often not insubstantial) funds to other banks. The Equitable Life customers had the worst experience but, even there, one case does not mean we should abandon private pensions as a lost cause.//////////

Yes I meant Equitable Life.

And as stated, private pensions are totally insecure.

It is only "The State" which is secure, but it is demonised.

//////But younger people... those born post 1960... have, for the last 30+ years, had every opportunity not to fall into the same trap. ///////

Please elaberate ?

Every 8 weeks you post the same points and then ignore everyone who attempts to discuss the matter

///////Portofino Tue 25-Jan-11 14:02:32
//////Oh God//////Not you again/////////

Well, you dont have to stay here, you could always go elswhere, or would you be the type why watches and moans without a credible brain cell to respond ?

/////////mamatomany Tue 25-Jan-11 14:10:11
Every 8 weeks you post the same points and then ignore everyone who attempts to discuss the matter////////

Pardon ?????

you don't want a conversation or a discussion you want us all to read your "facts" and then do what exactly ?

And enough with all the /////\\\

If we're talking of brain cells, it is not ME that keeps starting the same thread over and over again. Or maybe you forgot that you did it already?

indeed, ivanhoe turns up here every so often trumpeting the cause of pensioners, and refuses to acknowledge that the majority are in a very decent position. I'm not sure how you could possibly persuade me to pay higher taxes so that people already on final salary pensions, with their own homes, free bus and train travel, winter fuel allowance etc get even more. Especially when, as others have noted, by the time we get there we won't be able to enjoy these same benefits.

No older person has to exist on £97.65 , the pension credit guarantee is £132.60. Those who have no savings will be getting rent and Council tax free anyway,and their bus passes etc. I have to agree that a lot of older people are very well off and as I work with them I should know. Many live in large houses which they hang on to despite the fact that they don't need 4+ bedrooms and spend large amounts heating and maintaining them. I sometimes feel sorry for older people who enquire about care services to help them and say they can't afford it - when I say Social Services might help them finance their care they tend to say that they have too much savings for that!

The fact of the matter is that when we are young we pay out for childcare and when we are old we need to pay out for care for ourselves ( or seek a quid pro quo from our children)

I wonder if ivanhoe might be a journalist for the People's Friend?

say they can't afford it - when I say Social Services might help them finance their care they tend to say that they have too much savings for that!

This is my MIL £50k in the bank but just thinks it's not right she should have to pay and trots out the i've worked all my life bollox, she worked all her life and so should not have to clean her own flat after an operation and should not have to pay either. I really do struggle to be sympathetic if i'm honest.

I wonder if ivanhoe might be a journalist for the People's Friend?

I don't think they will enjoy reading the responses on MN then

My nan gets the People's Friend. There's usually a painting of a boat in rocky waters on the front and a teaser line like:

"COOKERY - How to use up the powdered egg from 1948!"

or "Slippers - Are you toasty toed?"

"And as stated, private pensions are totally insecure. It is only "The State" which is secure, but it is demonised."

Private pensions, like any investment, present a risk. A savings account presents less risk but possibly not the same reward. A home is not a secure investment but, historically, has been less risky than some. "The State" on the other hand is entirely dependent on what government happens to be in charge and - politics being what it is - short-term election-winning strategies often trump long-term measures, especially if they are prudent but unpopular. It is anything but secure.

I can spread my risk across savings, property, pensions best I can. And if unfortunately I fnd myself face down in the gutter I'd like to think the my family,friends, the state or a charity would give me a leg up again. But to put all my eggs in one basket and deliberately rely on a bunch of politicians to look after me in my old age I think would be a new definition of insanity.

My children are my pension, I make a point of being bloody lovely to them so they will look after me, my aunt is a care assistant who visits the elderly in their own homes. The ones who have no family who visit them you can usually see the families point after being with them for half an hour.

If you want to really experience some moaning pensioners, read Yours magazine. I was particularly proud of getting a really whingey letter published saying there should be special pensioner discounts on fishpaste and Spam in the supermarket (I put dh's name at the bottom!!) and getting a £10 shopping voucher. Tee hee.

"//////But younger people... those born post 1960... have, for the last 30+ years, had every opportunity not to fall into the same trap. /////// Please elaberate ?"

Elaborating with pleasure. In 1979 the way pensions were calculated changed amid quite an uproar. That's 32 years ago. In the interim there have been any number of tax-free incentives to save... TESSAs, PEPs, ISAs etc.... we've been given tax relief on pension contributions, the 'portable pension', the 'stakeholder pension', 'top up contributions'. There are frequent news stories on 'the demographic time-bomb'. So someone retiring today age 65 - unlike those who retired 20 years ago - has had 30 years of opportunity, warning and less than subtle encouragement from successive governments to put a bit by for their retirement.

Gramercy

Hmmm, I wondered who Ivanhoe is. It seemed like a fair q when I first saw it, although, judging by the archives, one that s/he raises fairly frequently for whatever reason. But I guess most of us have our pet topics, People's Friend journalist or no.....

///////"//////But younger people... those born post 1960... have, for the last 30+ years, had every opportunity not to fall into the same trap. /////// Please elaberate ?"

Elaborating with pleasure. In 1979 the way pensions were calculated changed amid quite an uproar. That's 32 years ago. In the interim there have been any number of tax-free incentives to save... TESSAs, PEPs, ISAs etc.... we've been given tax relief on pension contributions, the 'portable pension', the 'stakeholder pension', 'top up contributions'. There are frequent news stories on 'the demographic time-bomb'. So someone retiring today age 65 - unlike those who retired 20 years ago - has had 30 years of opportunity, warning and less than subtle encouragement from successive governments to put a bit by for their retirement.///////

Oh, what a black and white world you live in, but you'lle learn.

///////But I guess most of us have our pet topics///////

A typically British patroniing remark if ever there was one.

The issue I raise, is a national disgrace, it is not a pet topic.

That's a rather mystifying statement. :) Beware the Ides of March, etc. I don't think I do live in a black and white world. I live very much in a bet-hedging, risk-aware, anything-could-happen kind of world.

I told you I was mid-forties so would it be reasonable to ask how old are you? And have you had a particular misfortune with retirement planning that makes you so anxious about the future?