Michael Give and the curriculum review

[Alwaysworthchecking]

Am I right to feel wound up by this man and his ideas? On the news this morning it said that education has concentrated too much on theories of learning and not enough on facts. Surely if you are an educator and understand your theories, you can give children the skills to think and thus create life-long learners. Give them a diet of facts and all you have are parrots who lack the skills to critically evaluate those facts.

Grrr!

Is he for real?

Oh bother - Gove, Michael Gove. Or is he the Gove that keeps on giving?

No, you are wrong. Gove is great. He has got his head screwed on. He probably doubts the value of some trendy theories espoused by progressives, and wants to reverse dumbing down.

'Give them a diet of facts and all you have are parrots who lack the skills to critically evaluate those facts.'

That is certainly true of the Labour front bench, but Gove knows that our students are capabale of so much more.

Interesting! I suppose I did ask.

Sometimes I do think he's 'great': he's a great speaker, he's well-read, intelligent, witty, etc. but his politics are not my politics (which is fair enough) and I am always left with the feeling that he's desperate to make his mark, whereas a man with those brains could really do something worthwhile.

Incidentally (can opener in one hand, can of worms in the other) which 'trendy theories espoused by progressives' did you have in mind? I sound like I'm goading you there, but I'm actually genuinely interested! When I first started teaching, I don't think I knew nearly enough about theories and I think that was a mistake. It's only now, as I contemplate returning to education, that I find myself really interested in them.

Though it pains me to say this, I do sort of see where Gove is coming from. As someone from a scientific background I was taken aback, to put it mildly, when my dd started studying science at secondary school. Far too much waffly stuff and not enough hard facts.

Critical evaluation, etc is well and good further along the line but basic knowledge of the facts needs to be taught first.

I like Gove. At first, I didn't. But he doesn't popularity. He is serious and wants to make changes for the better. We need people like that.

"which 'trendy theories espoused by progressives' did you have in mind?"

How long have you got? Eternity would be too short to chronicle all the mistakes that the progressives have made, and listing them would only lead us into the slough of despond.

One that has come up recently on MN is the whole onety, twoty, threety business for ten, twenty, thirty etc. Hopefully, that is one of the first things that Gove has in his sights.

What theories do you think are good?

doesn't court popularity

Thankfully we seem to have escaped the onety twoty stuff.

I may be coming at this from the wrong angle, as I meant theories that educators need to know, so that they know where they are headed and how they're going to get there. Theories of how children learn: that kind of thing. Then again, I do think there's a place for theory when talking to children too. I'm not saying they don't need facts, just that going too far in any direction inevitably means you lose a lot of helpful stuff. Mind you, to be fair, I wasn't saying that at the outset, was I? I was just dissing Gove!

I guess I just don't understand why you can't teach facts and theory. They're not mutually exclusive, surely. Quite the reverse, I'd have thought.

Incidentally, who are the progressives? (Again, I ask out of interest.)

constructivism is a leftwing progressive theory of education, and leads to learning through play, student voice etc. I think it is flawed, but that is another debate.

Agree, you mustn't just teach facts. Reasoning is what really counts, critical thinking etc. I think Gove will move towards that as he increases standards and removes gimmicks.

Everybody nowadays claims that they are progressives. But the real progressives are leftwing socialists.

I think Gove is great.

I heard it that he thinks there has been a huge emphasis on method over content. And I would agree with him on that.

Re gymcrack 'theories' of recent times - multiple intelligences, VAK, the braingym stuff.

It is all to do with collaborative learning and active learning these days, so how you are teaching rather than what. And the how part is pushed hard, let no one dare disagree.

seth, you're in good company; the public also think he is great.

Gove is right. How can it be right for children to learn history, for instance and have no idea of the sequence of events? Mine have learned Greeks, Vikings, Victorians, Tudors MIddle Ages, in that order, in a kind of 'themed' sense. No dates.

Why not do it in the right order? With dates?

I do not want to see rows of children learning facts by rote but agree with others its gone far too far the other way.

Children need to learn facts before they can begin to employ critical thinking skills. They need good basic maths and english skills to learn anything at all.

I'm sorry I cannot engage in this debate, but I am laughing so hard at the typo (which is fantastic, and highly pertinent) from a poster named "always worth checking"...

almost spurted tea all over my laptop.

'Why not do it in the right order? With dates?'

Because they may then gain a coherent, instead of a disjointed, picture of history. That goes against the grain of progressive dumbing down.

be great to do history properly somehow I imagine it is going to be more of the old
'in 14 92 columbus sailed the ocean blue'

I have a chemistry degree and over the years when I've looked at what and how chemistry has been taught to my dc I want to weep. I'm more than willing to Goves ideas a shot

IS he dumping RE as compulsory topic?

that would be good

What public think that gove is great?

Did you hear the radio 5 interview?

The man was unbelievably rude to the caller and couldn't cope at all- Gove was like a petulant child.

His views are based on his mistaken views about this own childhood and education and he has failed tom take account of worldwide research evidence.

This is about to be an awful experiment with childrens lives.

The english bacc results of many of the top public and independent schools were awful- this is apparently the education that Gove wants for all children but his view based on a 30 year old view of what a good education was then (in his opinion) it doesnt reflect education today.

'Did you hear the radio 5 interview?
The man was unbelievably rude to the caller and couldn't cope at all- Gove was like a petulant child.'

I didn't hear it. Are you sure it was Gove and not an impostor? Maybe he was having a bad day? It doesn't sound like the Gove that I have heard.

I agree with changeisagoodthing.

I think there possibly also needs to be a different debate here between primary and secondary education. However, young children learn best when they are taught in 'topics'.

As for teaching History in order, would that mean at Nursery they learn about the English Civil war or a bit further along/back maybe? How far into history would they be by Year2 or 5? It is problematic I would imagine because how much of that history 'in date order' would be comprehensible, appropriate or meaningful to them at certain ages? I would think that every history topic studied is put onto some kind of relevant time line in school with dates and important figures. There is a whole lot more to subjects like Geography and History than dates etc. There is enquiry, research, debate and other different skills. If you are simply memorising dates and names, then firstly that is dull and secondly you are not learning you are memorising, that is, you are only doing shallow learning. Quite appropriate when talking about Mr.Gove.

I really worry about what is now happening to education. I do not believe what he is planning is good at all. Sadly he is for real.

Yay for Change and Lego! (Mainly because you appear to agree with me and who doesn't like that? ) I just read some of this to dh, who is an engineer. He agrees with you both too. With ref. to Lego's excellent point about the pitfalls of the chronological teaching of history, he would like to add that many children will miss out on learning about the Holocaust as they won't cover that until 6th form.

I worry about it too. A lot.

Claig, I'm starting to see that 'progressive' here is used as a derogatory term and as shorthand for 'people I don't agree with'. It can't be truly progressive to 'dumb down' can it? How is that progress? In the true sense of the word, I'd have thought Gove is progressive, given that he is promoting reform through gov't action and is promoting progress. I don't agree with him, but I'd have thought that his aims are progressive.

I probably should have stated that I'm coming at this from an Early Years/Primary angle. DD just did a topic (gasp!)on the Victorians and they learned lots of dates and facts. She's 7. Ds is in Reception and learning lots of facts, but in both cases I can see that how these are delivered are backed up by theory and an understanding of how children learn. I'm not sure that Gove has that understanding, despite his quite clearly phenomenal brains. (And yes, it was him on the radio and not an imposter.)

CaptainNancy I know - sorry.

'It can't be truly progressive to 'dumb down' can it?'

That's right. Those who claim to be progressives, aren't really. That's why they use the word, as camouflage. You are right, Gove is promoting progress and is therefore a progressive in the true sense of the word. I am using the term 'progressive' as it is used by Labour, and the philosophy and theory that goes with that.

The english bacc results of many of the top public and independent schools were awful- this is apparently the education that Gove wants for all children but his view based on a 30 year old view of what a good education was then (in his opinion) it doesnt reflect education today.

Only because they take IGCSEs that weren't included in all subjects, such as some of the Maths papers, because Ofqual are still going through the verification process. Get real.