Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

A superb article: Ordinary workers should be protected from the evil influence of public sector unions

105 replies

longfingernails · 13/12/2010 22:02

Bravo, Tim Pawlenty!

He has written an excellent comment piece in today's Wall Street Journal.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703766704576009350303578410.html

Pawlenty is a bit of what we used to call a "wet" Conservative - think Ken Clarke - the Americans have the more perjorative term RINO - Republican in Name Only. But this article is spot-on.

Public sector unions should be made illegal. As the article so deftly explains, public sector unions are deeply exploitative.

OP posts:
huddspur · 13/12/2010 23:57

I think that Obama will get a second term, he's such a good campaigner and powerful speech maker and lets face it the Republicans are far more culpable for Americas economic woes than Obama is

longfingernails · 14/12/2010 00:06

The problem is one we are familiar with: the deficit. At some point, Obama will have to start slashing the federal budget.

The Republicans are continuing to behave irresponsibly, giving conservatism a bad name, just like Bush.

Balanced budgets have to come first, before big tax cuts - though the tax cuts have to come eventually. Cameron and Osborne are right and Bush was totally wrong.

But Obama is in a bind. He can't increase taxes - he already repels independents. He can't get them back like Clinton, because he is not a Blue Dog Democrat - he is definitely of the left. And he won't cut spending - most of his Presidency has been occupied, in one shape or form, with massively increasing it.

That means America will have bigger and bigger deficits. It can run them for a while, because the dollar is a reserve currency - but how long will that last?

Obama is in trouble. It's the economy, stupid. How, exactly, is Obama going to lop of hundreds of billions in federal spending, in time for 2012?

OP posts:
TheFarSide · 14/12/2010 00:07

It's an American article - not sure how it applies in the UK. Last time I looked the public sector here was facing massive job cuts.

The public sector employs relatively large numbers of women, many on very low pay. Are you saying these women would be better off without unions?

longfingernails · 14/12/2010 00:10

I am saying that the good employees are better off without unions. The bad employees should be sacked, even in times of plenty - in fact, especially in times of plenty.

The role of the public sector isn't to provide jobs. It is to provide decent public services for the best possible value.

OP posts:
longfingernails · 14/12/2010 00:11

The situation in the UK is far worse - our public sector unions are far more militant - but the issues are exactly the same on both sides of the pond.

OP posts:
RRocks · 14/12/2010 00:23

Unions are essential to maintaining a balance of power. It is a mistake to think that legislation is sufficient. When faced with the prospect of walking off the job and suing your wealthy employer for breach of contract or knuckling under and just accepting that they've screwed you out of salary, pension or whatever, the individual will almost always keep the job because they have a mortgage to pay and children to bring up, they can't afford the legal fees and they can't deal with the stress of a hostile action which involves them personally but others perhaps only in a professional capacity. A union can provide the legal backing you need, which often needn't be used because the mere fact that you have it tends to make the employer behave more reasonably. I say this based on recent, personal experience. My employer was a large plc and we were transferred to a small firm that had bought out a part of the business. Legally, nothing should have changed but the name over the door. In practice we had to sign compromise agreements in order to keep our jobs, and these agreements accepted the removal of any part of our terms and conditions that the owners of the new business didn't want. (The cost of our terms and conditions came out of their pockets in the new regime, so they had more of an incentive to cut costs than they had previously.) Did the HR department of our plc employer protect us? On the contrary; they failed to answer our questions about it during the 'consultation process' and wrote up minutes of meetings in a way that didn't reflect half of what was said. The junior member of staff who was provided to us was very embarassed by the whole process. No-one in a senior role in HR deigned to talk to any of us. Basically the MD of the plc had done a deal with the boss of the buy-out company and nothing was to get in the way of it. Hmm

Membership of a union would have given us both a negotiating position and a trained negotiator to help us. As it was, our only alternative was to effectively resign in the midst of a recession and at a time when most of our industry had moved out of our city so that there were virtually no jobs for us there. I say 'our', but of course we were each an individual, so there was no 'us'.

Without unions very good employees might do well, but that's no reason to condemn the vast majority of hard-working people to powerlessness in the face of ruthless employers, most of whom are interested mainly in making money, which means mainly keeping down costs, sometimes with complete disregard for the law.

Public sector workers are in a similar situation when their services are outsourced and costs are cut to the bare minimum, which means cutting terms and conditions as well as cutting standards of service to the public. (Somebody's making a good living out of the privatisation of the cleaning of hospitals, but it's not the cleaners, and nor are our hospitals nearly as clean as they used to be.) The public service organisation is happy just to get the cost of the service off their books, and if they are interested presumably just cross their fingers and hope that no-one will complain too much about the deterioration in the new, more efficient, private service.

I'm all for reform of the public sector, but I fear that it might be done in a way that makes money for a few people and does little to improve the efficiency of public service.

I think that the problem is the narrow experience and education of most of the unions' leaders. Like anyone else (bankers and their bonuses? hospital consultants and their bonuses?)public service workers are reluctant to give up what they've already got, which makes reform of the public service difficult but not impossible. I'm not arguing that public services should not be reformed, nor that they couldn't be made to work much more efficiently. I also think that people who work in the public service rarely have any idea of what it's like in the private sector,especially in a business in which every penny is counted, but then you often find that sort of disparity even between departments in some companies. This lack of understanding of how the private sector, at its best, operates is what prevents unions from providing the best sort of leadership to its members. Maybe unions should require their leadership to have done courses in business management, economics or accountancy, not just to have read up on labour history, enlightening and worthwhile though that is.

TheFarSide · 14/12/2010 00:30

Without unions, good employees are made redundant. I am in this position, and am very pleased to have a union behind me.

There is an argument that the public sector does have a role to provide jobs and thereby boost spending.

I'm in Unison and don't find them particularly militant. During my fifteen years of membership I have never been on strike.

The situation is much more complex than you or Tim Pawlenty paint it.

saggarmakersbottomknocker · 14/12/2010 08:02

23balloons's situation is repeated in many schools across the country. I'm currently undergraded for my job and performing a role that makes my original job description look like something from Jackanory.

What do you suggest 23balloons does next lfn? Or do you think her situation is acceptable because she works in the public sector and is there to give value for money and it matters not that she hasn't got acceptable terms and conditions?

sarah293 · 14/12/2010 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

bobthebuddha · 14/12/2010 10:05

Are you a Daily Mail headline writer LFN? Very, ahem 'distinctive' style. Almost parodic....

Litchick · 14/12/2010 10:48

I think there is a debate to be had around unions playing national and international politics, rather than protecting the interests of their members.

However, we can't forget the dreadful terms and conditions many worked under less than half a century ago. Without the unions, many would still be working in those conditions.

I wish more ordinary workers would gte involved in their unions so they wouldn't be co-opted by the extreme left.

TheFarSide · 14/12/2010 18:28

Litchick there was an interesting interview with Bob Crow in yesterday's Guardian - he put forward one argument for unions getting involved in global politics - basically that globalisation is about big business attempting to push down labour costs.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/13/bob-crow-strikes-rmt-union?INTCMP=SRCH

It's a great article. The author puts a negative spin on Bob Crow's words, but I think she makes a bit of a fool of herself as his quotes all make perfect sense to me.

Can't believe the Guardian has gone so right wing.

Waddya think, LFN?

granted · 14/12/2010 18:58

LFN, you can't be for real?

You're doing such an OTT parody of a right-wing Tory that even I don't believe it.

Can't be bothered to argue with the article - it's by an American. Americans are not famed for their lov of unions.

We don't live in America, so it's a bit irrelevant.

Why don't you move somewhere more suitable, LFN? There must be a right-wing dictatorship somewhere that would make you feel right at home...

longfingernails · 14/12/2010 20:12

granted Yes, I am for real. And I like democracy very much, thank you. I want more democracy, and more direct democracy - more referenda - on topics ranging from leaving the EU, to how frequently bins should be collected.

TheFarSide Bob Crowe is obnoxious. Not caring if there were a million strikes? I hope the government make it illegal for Tube workers to strike.

An alternative would be to get an independent panel of auditors and accountants, and make the union financially liable (with union leadership personally liable) for the costs of the strike (including the costs of hiring strikebreakers). If it cost the RMT £50m a pop to strike every time there was an England match on in the summer, Bob Crowe might think twice.

OP posts:
TheFarSide · 14/12/2010 20:25

But LFN, Bob Crowe gets a good deal for his members (who are still probably not paid anywhere near as much as bankers) plus don't forget it's his members who vote for strike action. If unions were stronger, public sector workers (remember, mainly low paid women) would get a much better deal.

LunaticFringe · 14/12/2010 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

longfingernails · 14/12/2010 20:42

It's not selfish at all.

By keeping the cost of government and public services under control by getting rid of the union bully-boy extortion rackets, low paid private sector workers would pay less tax, and get more spending money.

OP posts:
claig · 14/12/2010 20:46

It sounds like you wouldn't mind getting rid of democracy as well. It's all about checks and balances. The unions are a balance against powerful employers. Bob Crow does his job of supporting his members and the management do their job of determining the conditions. They have to come to a compromise and agreement. That is democracy. No one party gets its own way. It's like the Coalition, they have to come to an agreement.

LunaticFringe · 14/12/2010 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maktaitai · 14/12/2010 21:04

'We refused to grant [public sector employees] lifetime health-care benefits after working just 15 years.'

What a terrific guy!

'We reworked benefits for new hires'.

Hmm, I wonder what that could possibly mean.

I love the idea that public sector workers and private sector workers are two opposing tribes that cannnot possibly have any interests in common. What proportion of private companies get large chunks of their revenue streams from public sector organisations and employees?

granted · 14/12/2010 21:05

What do you do LFN?

thefirstMrsDeVere · 14/12/2010 21:15

How the hell does a cleaner in a hospital defend themselves against a HA bent on sacking the entire housekeeping team and making them reapply for the jobs. On lower wages, with less holiday?

Get their solicitor onto it I suppose? Hmm

Not all (or that many) public sector workers are usless, weirdly titled, pc gorn mad wasters with bloated saleries y'know.

Lots on minimum wage, loads on lower than average wage, few benefits, little job protection, short term contracts. Tons do unpaid overtime. Its called TOIL and the chances of being able to take back time owed is minimal due to workloads.

If I took all the TOIL owed to me I would have to take months off at a time.

I have worked in the public sector most of my working life. Thank God for the unions.

ItsGrimUpNorth · 14/12/2010 21:23

Your man Rubio clearly isn't up to the job

I can't believe any of you even respond to LFN. She talks such cobblers and clearly doesn't live in the real world.

Except I just responded to her. Sigh. I reckon she's a Tory MP, planted here to try and subvert us into thinking the way she does.

I don't vote Tory EVER (and I'm not always a Labour voter) because I don't believe they ever stand for justice, look after the people of Britain and only ever look after the rich minority. Because the rich need all the help they can get.

In fact, I believe the Tories despise ordinary, working people. That's why they whip away all the help they possibly can. At every opportunity. Every time. Despicable people. So yes, they are nasty.

granted · 14/12/2010 22:02

The whole public sector v private sector thing is completely stupid, really. It's not as though they were two different races, and one was born into one or the other, and determined to therefore hate the other side forevermore.

In reality, most people work in both at some point, or failing that, get an income that derives from both. Everyone, incl LFN - whether she likes it or not - benefits from both the public and private sectors.

saggarmakersbottomknocker · 14/12/2010 22:24

I'm interested in what you do for a living too LFN. I wonder how many of your probably well protected terms and conditions have been hard fought for by union members historically.

Or are you one of those people that take the benefits but don't pay the subs?

Swipe left for the next trending thread