Bailouts could bankrupt Germany itself

[longfingernails]

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/8160999/EU-rescue-costs-start-to-threaten-Germany-itself.html

Time to stop handing out money to governments and banks which have screwed up.

The euro isn't worth the suffering of millions. Let currencies leave; legislate to allow them to convert their debt to the new (old) currencies. Let the banks who made bad bets take haircuts on the devaluation.

Countries with otherwise sensible fiscal policies like Germany and Britain (now that we have a government committed to cutting excessive public spending) are putting themselves at risk.

Leaving the euro and reverting back to their original currency wouldn't help any of the countrys that have sovereign debt problems as no-one would want their original currency. There would be an immediate run on punts for example if Ireland went back.

huddspur A big currency devaluation would be immensely helpful to Ireland, Greece, and the others.

A devaluation would be helpful but I think you would get a run on the currency and this certainly wouldn't help

Is it worth pointing out that historically, the Conservatives were the ones in favour of entering the EEC, the (old) Labour party against.

And that the Big Bang deregulation of banks happened in Britain under a Cons. government.

Leaving that aside, I absolutely agree that the whole banking crisis hasn't even scratched the surface of what is possible yet, and also that it is a Very Good Thing that we are not in the Euro (and yes, the left was arguing at least as vehemently as the right against it back in the 90s).

We live in interesting times, as they say.

Do y'all read Golem ? If not, worth a look, though a bit purple-pen at times.

Membership of the EEC or the EU as it is now has been and is very beneficial to the country. The old Labour party opposed it as it was deeply socialist and seemed to favour protectionism and isolationism both of which are forms of economic masochism.

I would agree Huddspur that on balance we are better in the EU than out, Euro aside.

Was just pointing out wrt earlier comments that it hasn't historically been left = Europe, right = out.

Is that mainly because the left has died out in this country

Good question. Maybe because once we were in people realised the good points and that it wasn't about pushing down wages (Social Chapter etc)?

Or maybe linked to weakening ties to the Commonwealth and increased ease of travel to other European countries for ordinary people?

swc - Hitler was a fascist which by definition is extreme right wing because he belived in inequality, no democracy, nationalism, corpratism and conservatism

If you think they are socialists because they used the word socialists, well HItler wanted to drop the 'socialist' part and rename them the "social revolutionary party' which would have been more erm, upfront, as they say.

hmm.
inequality, no democracy, nationalism, corpratism and conservatism.
Reminds me - anyone remember the SOviet UNion? That was a bit " lefty" as I recall.

I think the socialist left still do oppose our membership of the EU for the same dogmatic reasons that the Labour Party opposed our entry into the EEC.

The centre left ie the New Labour don't oppose EU membership because they see the obvious benefits of free trade between nations.

Socialism and fascism are both highly authoritarian ideologies that believe that the state has absolute power and supremacy over the right of the citizen. They are very similar in their beliefs.

What the Left in this country has generally sought though (certainly in the last 50 years) is social democracy, which is very different to the state socialism of the ex USSR, China etc.

Sweden, for example, is not a notably authoritarian country.

We seem to have moved a long way from the OP.

Longfingernails, on this (though possibly not on much else), I agree with you.

Also, to go back to what SWC was saying about those lovely cuddly lefties, the historical reality can't be pointed out too often.

I think she may have been reading this rather intersting post which describes the "dirty little secret" of the left - eugenics.

Extract:
" Prominent Fabians such as H G Wells and Webbs led the way in combining the ?progressive? ideologies of socialism and eugenics. It didn?t stop when Mosely quit the group either, while eugenics is now a dirty word, for a century the Fabians have sought, and sadly often succeeded, in undermining the traditional family, property rights and individual freedom. Their cause was, and still is, evil."

Grand people always know what's best for the little people. So what was it about National Socialists not actually being Socialists? That's hogwash unfortunately - you are kidding yourself.

( sorry, I couldn't post earlier because I was having the mother of all posting probs)

Look, the consensus among historians is that Hitler was extreme right wing. Despite the name. You right wingers are seriously kidding yourselves. Elitism is the root of eugenics, as your man kindly demonstrated yesterday with his 'breeding' comments.

I think the whole right/left political spectrum is simplistic and a very flawed way of looking at political ideologies. Its far better to look at whether an ideology is libertarian or authoritarian and its view of the market. Socialism and fascism are both totalitarian but have very differing views to the market.

fnarr.

Yes hit the nerve straight down the middle

did your historians take a vote btw?

also, are you sure that everyone who thinks you are seriously misguided is a rightwinger?

You might be surprised

YES! - Ladyb - have a look at byrel's post of 20.03.

It's very clear, very concise, and I think after a long session with a cold towel over your head, some of it might sink in.

We would still have free trade with Europe irrespective of being in or out. I would rather we were out, seeing the money that is wasted by the Commission and the Council.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/8189102/Eurozone-debt-fears-infect-German-bonds.html

Now German bunds are getting hammered; yields are rocketing.

These international developments are very worrying. A cataclysmic financial event is around the corner. Either the euro breaks up, or the periphery countries of the EU will go bust one by one.

In the short term, though, hopefully Britain will keep seeing a flight to quality keeping our gilt yields low, maybe even outcompeting Germany, thanks to our government's plan to eliminate the structural deficit.

I don't think there's any chance of Germany needing a bailout. Their deficit isn't very high and they have fiscal consolidation plan being implemented. Add to that they've got a growth of more than 3%

LFN for once I agree with you, The Euro which I never supported was a mistake the Eurozone economies are to diverse to be a coherent whole.

The Common Market was a great idea but the EEC is just a club to reward Politicos of the left and right and to support big business, multi nationals and special interest groups.

I think the benefits of an optimum currency area are obvious the problem with the euro is there hasn't been any coordination of fiscal policy between eurozone countries.