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Politics

The BBC is finally being punished!

179 replies

longfingernails · 19/10/2010 04:58

Apparently there is a great plan to shift the cost of free TV licenses from the taxpayer to the BBC - with no increase in the license fee to compensate!

That amounts to about a 20% cut in the BBC budget. I am over the moon at this news.

It's incredibly progressive too! It shifts the burden from poor taxpayers to overpaid BBC staff, who will probably have to take a 25% pay cut! I am sure the newsreader who revealed she was paid £92k will be distraught. I can't even begin to imagine how much luvvies like Robert Peston and Andrew Marr are paid.

Maybe the next time the BBC says that "public spending cuts take money out of the economy" on the news, it might like to reflect on why Tories are so cock-a-hoop tonight.

They are in the middle of a "Cuts watch" series of programmes, I understand. Funnily enough, they never seemed to get round to a "Deficit watch" or "Tax watch" series during the Labour years. Strange, really - I wonder why?

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:05

France in particular has huge problems with an over regualated labour market increasing unemployment and pushign up welfare costs.

larrygrylls · 20/10/2010 10:13

TheCoalition,

Not sure I know a dictionary where peripheral is defined as recent. They sit on the periphery and are economically not that significant. France and Germany are the motors of the Eurozone, with Italy being the next significant player.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:13

And this would be the France that takes 46% of GDP in tax, the Germany that takes 40.6% and the Uk that takes 39%?

Switzerland is only 30.1% and Singapore 13 but they are very different types of economies.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:16

They are hardly peripheral to the Eurozone. Their debt is just as significant.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:21

But we were talking about Europe not the Eurozone, where the 'Sick Man' has the 3rd lowest tax of the big 4 and is the 3rd largest manufacturer?

investing.curiouscatblog.net/2009/10/13/data-on-the-largest-manufacturing-countries-in-2008/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

larrygrylls · 20/10/2010 10:21

TheCoalition,

Yes, France and Germany are marginally more socialist than the UK BUT at least you see something for your taxes. A decent medical system, infrastructure that works etc. I prefer more the low tax model but the UK is worst of all worlds. You pay a lot but get very little. Taxes go to subsidise public sector inflation and unnecessary quangos.

In addition, given our debt problems, we will have very little possibility of lower taxes for very many years.

As to their debt being significant, only if they are bailed out, which remains to be seen. If not their debt is only significant to them and investors in their debt.

Matsikula · 20/10/2010 10:25

Larrygryls it's your hyperbole that I take issue with! We seem to have heads so far up our own backsides in this country that we think that everyone everywhere is better off than we are.

I'd still contend that France and Germany have major problems with, for example, youth unemployment, partly because they have such illiberal employment laws that those lucky enough to have jobs get out on the streets at the drop of a hat, while a fair percentage of even the very educated survive on endless short-term contracts.

Anyway, back to the BBC, I think the connection you make between 'crowding out' and quality of output is spurious. When we had 4 channels, the quality of the commercial stations output was still high. Your ITV friends might blame the BBC, but perhaps their problems are due to the fact that Sky has been massively more commercially sucessful.

I am genuinely not sure what you are getting at in your last paragraph though. In the 70s and 80s UK politics was not nearly so polarised as it seems to be in the US now. In the US religion is a huge issue, to an extent that we don't really understand. While Thatcher was liberalising and privatising, the NHS, for example was never threatened. And no political party really claimed to have a monopoly on 'Britishness' the way some right wing Republicans like to co-opt the flag.

Perhaps you think I am naive, but I think the expenses scandal is another example of the manufactured fury we like to wallow in. Don't like your MP? Use your vote, get rid of them, end of story. The Iraq war, yes, a massive mistake, but don't forget that a large proportion of our political class was against it too.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:37

BSkyB made a profit of £60 Million in 2008. Despite losing £616 million due to it's stake in ITV.

Who lost 2.7 Billion.

I don't think that's due to the BBC.

larrygrylls · 20/10/2010 10:39

Matsikula,

Maybe, I have not personally lived in France or Germany, but I know many who do (including my brother in Paris). There is an issue with short term contracts in France but that is to some extent linked to the unsackability of anyone who makes it on to the full payroll.

Sky has indeed been much more successful. However, it seems to me that if a government is backing cultural programmes (which are never going to be huge moneyspinners) then what real incentive is ot for a commercial channel to commission them? When we had four channels TV on the whole was much more highbrow, for better of for worse. My main issue is why should everyone have to pay for what it a minority interest. If I want to watch interesting science documentaries, why shouldn't I pay for them? Why should I expect someone happy with Big Brother etc to subsidise me? The market does cater for niches quite well. Look at New Scientist magazine, for instance. That is done within the private sector.

If all the alternative MPs think the same thing, the choice is bogus. Look at the issue of the EC and whether we want to remain within it. No mainstream party is giving us a referendum on it or taking the alternative view.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:39

I have to say I have had no problems so far with the Health System or Infrastructure in this country.

(Well apart from being stuck for 2 HOURS stationary on the M1 on Friday, but that was due to an accident.)

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:44

France, Germany and Italy all have a larger national debts as a % of GDP than us, and are going to have at least as much if not more problems reducing their deficits.

longfingernails · 20/10/2010 10:47

Sadly it seems that the original plan as I described will not go ahead.

The latest rumour is that there will just be a 6 year cash-terms freeze in the licence fee - amounting to an eventual 16% real-terms cut, but extremely gradual.

The BBC needs a shock and awe style shakeup - not minor salami slicing. And in a time of constrained personal finances, they need big cuts, not freezes.

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:49

Politics is terrifying in the US.

Religous fundamentalists and people who think the president is a secret muslim are significant political forces.

They are incredibly balkanized.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 10:50

Can we at least dump the pointless FM switchoff? That'll save a few pennies.

sfxmum · 20/10/2010 11:02

Just speaking of France it is difficult to make many comparisons between the UK and France, they are quite different, France is more rural and is less densely populated for example, that really influences the way people think and what they give priority too

what do people think of Japan for example
found this interesting too

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 20/10/2010 11:13

Japan is a very different type of society MUCH more homogeneous than anywhere in Europe or the US and with business far more intimately and explicitly linked to the state.

It's much less 'free' in may senses though - very socially conservative, not very equal for women, judicial system dubious (99.8 percent conviction rate) but they don't see, to have done badly in the last 10 years on a lot of other measures.

sfxmum · 20/10/2010 11:19

they also had one of the worst depressions I wonder how their recovery can be compared even given the cultural differences

mathanxiety · 20/10/2010 16:36

Larry (I'm Irish btw) -- Media that dumbs down has obviously found itself a market not served by whatever is already in place. Are you actually saying here that the BBC offers high quality programming that appeals to those who want something besides vulgarity? When media and programming are entirely driven by the market the result is that every outlet has to go where the money is; the forced dumbing down of which you speak, and which you appear to decry, happens more and faster when all must appeal to the lowest common denominator when making programming decisions. Keeping your eye firmly fixed on the bottom line makes for awful TV and a coarsening of culture, as can be easily seen in the arena of newspapers (good point above).

Would you consider that the NHS 'crowds out' the private sector in the medical field, and do you think this is a bad thing? (Hint -- take a look at infant mortality figures in the US). Or that state schools crowd out private enterprise in the field of education? Or that the police force crowds out the valuable services of little bands of armed thugs and private security firms... British society has arrived at a point where, despite the efforts of Margaret Thatcher, there is an assumption that 'society' exists, and that certain public services are worth what they cost.

'Governments cannot ultimately derive tax from the public sector unless it is run for profit, in which case why is the government there in the first place? Therefore, public sector stimulus can at best be a short term measure.'
Your muddleheaded assumption that the only institution in a state that has any value is one which generates tax revenue would mean the wiping out of the NHS and the dismantling of the education system, the armed forces (now there's a net drain on the economy if ever there was one), the police.

I notice you haven't mentioned the heavily subsidised agriculture sector as a possible target for cuts, nor have you suggested the imposition of paying for employee private health insurance as is the case in the US, where public or even individual-payer health insurance was shot down in flames not too long ago because the idea of 'socialised medicine' was terrifying to a big chunk of the electorate ('death panels'), and rejected of course by the insurance industry. The saddling of American business with the health costs of the working population and their dependents makes American business far less competitive and profitable than it might be otherwise; British business is in effect and by comparison subsidised by the taxpayer/NHS -- how about allowing British business to face the world with the health insurance apron strings cut? You have a very selective definition of what constitutes state support, and a limited understanding of how state support works to keep wheels greased in most economies. It's not limited to the public sector for one thing. And everyone employed in whatever sector pays personal income taxes (except maybe those expats who can pack up and leave or tax-averse individuals who send their money to shelters abroad).

Echo chamber politics is the exact opposite of debate, Larry. It means two camps and, very significantly, their respective media outlets, preaching to their respective choirs and nobody else. It leads to the breakdown of civility in public discourse, and the demonisation of the opposition; the phenomenon of people willing to go out in public with placards expressing their belief that Barack Obama was not born in the US is not any kind of political debate and it does not indicate any willingness to engage in political debate. It is thinly veiled racism, the rise of the old South.

The fact that Britain (like most of Europe) has many more shared assumptions and cultural values makes for a much more lively public debate. It is easier to debate the merits of cuts when most can agree that yes, some are necessary, and yes, some services are really necessary. In the US, the two sides speak virtually a different language. It's like Ireland back in the 80s, when the various sides of the divorce and abortion debates were completely unable to understand where the other was coming from.

You seem to think that a legislative body that is mired in ideological mud slinging would be a good thing, but the reality is that compromise and the willingness to approach important policy decisions with a modicum of consensus mean things actually get done.

The BBC is the 'soft power' element, not the UK. I don't think you can really put a price on it. The alternative face of Britain is the spectacle of football hooliganism and the horrible reputation of British food. Your European ex-pat friends are perhaps the sort of people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

larrygrylls · 21/10/2010 08:19

Mathanxiety,

There is an element of intellectual snobbery in your post about the "lowest common denominator". Personally, I like a mixture of television including the highbrow and the popular. However, television should be driven by what people want to view, not de haut en bas. As I said in an earlier post, I do believe that the private sector caters perfectly well for niche markets.

You choose some interesting examples for your argument against "crowding out". The NHS provides very expensive and wasteful average care in the UK. It does what the state always does best, tries to make us grateful for receiving services that we have actually paid for through taxes, and pretends it is free using the glorious euphemism: "free at the point of service". The U.S is more polarised and worse at the lower end but give me U.S private care any day rather than the NHS. As for schools, the state does not crowd out the private sector for decent but non flashy privately run schools. What it has done is pushed the private sector into the super luxury market. It would be like the state producing clothes. Hermes would still exist but Primark and Next probably would not.

I fully agree with your next paragraph. I would love to see agricultural subsidies cut in all the first world. It is the best thing we could ever do for Africa, rather than the dody rubbish Bono promotes. I would scrap the NHS altogether and replace it with a voucher system payable directly to the poorest. You assume that I have a limited understanding but I just could not cover all the areas where the state intervenes in one post. The original goal of taxation was to pay for the army, the police and public services such as waste collection. Those are some of the very few things that the state does best.

What you term "echo chamber" politics is politicians going for their "core" vote. It is a rational strategy when not many are undecided. The alternative is the elite agreeing 95% of public policy and then arguing vociferously over the other 5%. That is not a real choice for the electorate at all.

Tony Blair borrowed a famous Democrat strategist for his first campaign (you will probably know the name). His triumph was to associate compassion with Labour and make the word "nasty" synonymous with the Tories. It is possible to be compassionate and also right wing. A large role for the state does not really promote fairness, merely patronage. You only need to look at the share price of a company like Capita to see how the UK conferred its patronage on the favoured.

And now we come to the last paragraph of your post. My ex pat friends know "the cost of everything and the value of nothing". Well, it is a free society and they have their own value system. Your views would have an intellectual elite dictating values to the rest of us including the "lowest common denominator".

larrygrylls · 21/10/2010 08:20

"the state does not crowd out the private sector for decent but non flashy privately run schools"

Sorry, should read "does" rather than "does not"

mathanxiety · 21/10/2010 19:34

US private healthcare as it now exists is extraordinarily wasteful and expensive, and the cost to business, which is forced to pay for it, has gone up far beyond the rate of inflation over the years. It is a huge and growing burden, which the existence of the NHS (which is the next best thing to individual payer healthcare in how it operates) frees British business from.

Even on a purely practical level, US healthcare doesn't have much going for it. Essentially, provision of US private healthcare as part of a compensation package constitutes a healthcare tax for most employees. Depending on family size and the sort of package a company can afford, an employee can see anywhere from 1K to 10K per year find its way to the coffers of an insurance company. This is on top of federal and state taxes that pay for local healthcare provision for the legions of people whose jobs come without insurance or without the sort of insurance necessary to cover items such as maternity care or vaccinations for your child (that can cost hundreds of dollars each and are required for school admission). Even with group health insurance that is provided out of your salary and acquired by an employer many find a high deductible or exceeding the lifetime amount available for, say, cancer treatment, will force them into bankruptcy. Many put off seeking treatment for mental illness until it becomes absolutely necessary because future coverage can be denied due to existing conditions. Americans are overtested and medicine is mechanised and geared far too much towards the cure of symptoms instead of the prevention of chronic illness that constitutes the biggest claim on insurance companies.

Anyone who thinks there is merit in a system that forces people to put off going to the doctor for fear of the bills, one that forces the elderly to cut pills in half and hope for the best, or choose between medicine and food, and scorns the benefits of a 'free at point of service' system does so for reasons of pure begrudgery towards the poor, and anyone who thinks the US has a superior system after looking at infant mortality figures there is in fact right wing and lacking in compassion. Your 'give me U.S private care any day rather than the NHS' is an example of very muddled thinking about the NHS, its aims and the ideal it embodies, and misguided notions about what US healthcare provides for the extraordinary amount it costs. The price of everything and the value of nothing...

You can't brush away the ugly fact that in the US, halfway adequate healthcare is only available, at a price, to those who can afford it. It is a commodity. The philosophical implications of that are cold and lacking in compassion. British society has arrived after hundreds of years of grinding poverty and deprivation for the majority at a much more civilised notion of what we owe each other in terms of support. When healthcare becomes an industry run on a profit model rather than a service designed to treat the sick and prevent suffering or death, sick people lose, and the sick poor lose most.

There is no such thing as wonderful healthcare that is free or low cost, anywhere. Someone has to pay. Whether the payment comes from a salary before tax or as a form of income tax, that 'someone' is the consumer. Far better imo to have a system based on the consensus that access to healthcare is an entitlement that comes with citizenship, a good thing for everyone, and the responsibility of all to pay for it. Better for the babies of the poor and that's for sure, and for the old. You don't have to be grateful for it on your own behalf, but not seeing the benefits for others is the opposite of compassion. I suppose it really does boil down to your value system, as you point out wrt your friends and where they choose to put their money.

Echo chamber politics is a phrase used to describe preaching to the choir, and has nothing to do with reaching out to undecided voters. The US has a huge rate of voter apathy. Election turnout tends to be extremely low. Keeping the zeal of the faithful fired up with appeals to their prejudices is a completely irrational strategy for anyone interested in attracting more support for a position they hold. It works fine in a society where the majority of citizens shrugs and finds something else to do on election day.

Apart from the rhetoric on the right of the Republican party, American public policy and debate has a largely consensual foundation. The Democrats and the Tories have much in common, with the Republicans providing the loudest and most active loony fringe. There is not much to choose between a moderate Democrat and a moderate Republican. The one lightning rod issue that has constituted the only real political divide for decades is that of abortion.

In all other areas there is basically the same amount of consensus as in Britain, but in the US the basic assumptions are far more conservative than in Britain. The word 'socialism' strikes fear equally in both parties (but a Republican is more likely to shoot you over the question...) However, unlike Britain, there is no motivation to appear willing to compromise or work together with the other party, and in fact a great fear of it. To do so would be to risk political suicide, with the likes of Rush Limbaugh on right wing radio ready to pounce and question your orthodoxy if you put a foot wrong. The faithful don't want to listen to prophets who tell them things they've been told by the radio charlatans they don't want to hear. A small, elite group of loudmouths with microphones essentially is trying to dictate policy to the Republican party (Beck, Savage, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, et al) and bang the Tea Party drum.

As for elites deciding public policy in general, with media firmly in the hands of business conglomerates, who now have the right of free speech on a par with individual citizens' rights in the political arena, and the graduates of a small number of universities cropping up time and time again in the upper echelons of administration, law and business, and in the political arena, it would be hard to escape the impression that the 5% doesn't have much more than its fair share of influence in the US.

As for patronage and politics and the cosy relationships between politicians and business even in a system where Big Gummint is anathema and the free market is worshiped by all read 'Boss' by Mike Royko, about Chicago politics and corruption, and look at the recent trial of Rod Blagojevich (sp?), former governor of Illinois, or the career of Ed Vrdolyak yes, I have spelled that one right. Three former governors of Illinois have done time for racketeering and/or corruption.

If people didn't want to watch BBC then they would not watch it, or any other terrestrial commercial channels for that matter. And in fact, viewership has dropped overall for all channels with the rise of digital media. People still like sports, drama, soaps, and value the news and current affairs programming the BBC provides alongside the commercial channels -- who provide much the same fare and who are all obliged to provide religious content such as Songs of Praise that are not popular. My reference to 'lowest common denominator' was a comparison of BBC output with the sort of disheartening dreck, (market-driven, advertising and merchandising vehicles) available on a lot of cable channels and even broadcast channels in the US. Anyone who has ever sat through a programme such as Hannah Montana would ask anxiously if there was more where that came from , and the answer is yes, sadly, there is lots more.

It is worth noting that all terrestrial channels are obliged to provide a certain balance of public service broadcasting. All channels take note of what the viewing public wants -- campaigns about the portrayal of LGBT individuals will hopefully result in the end of the caricaturing of gay characters as camp; the portrayal of racial and ethnic minorities is a far cry from how it was back in the 70s (remember 'The Black and White Minstrel Show'?) Ofcom takes into account market needs, technology, and viewer taste in attempting to determine the roles of various media in the UK, with its purpose based on the underlying assumption that a variety of views and a variety of programming is good for society. There is a version of Ofcom in the US, whose role is concerned mostly with antitrust issues and the upholding of some sort of 'public morality', the prevention of wardrobe malfunctions, etc. No surprise that money and prudery issues govern the airwaves in the US whereas social responsibility and nurture of the body politic tend to dominate the debates on programming in Britain.

eurocommuter · 22/10/2010 04:30

I doubt what would happen with the cuts at the bbc will reduce the minority overpaid bbc employees. Do you realise that 70 percent of bbc staff are paid under 30k. Most of the private broadcaster in the uk pay more than that for similar roles.
The bbc is very good value for money.

slug · 22/10/2010 13:21

I stand in awe mathsanxiety of a most elequently written and illuminating post.

mathanxiety · 22/10/2010 16:20

I stand in awe of you for slogging through it, Slug [hblush]

ohforfoxsake · 22/10/2010 16:26

Where is Murdoch in all this? He is quite friendly with the Tories, and I would imagine be doing quite well with them surely?