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Politics

Jeremy Hunt: "Don't expect us to pay for your children"

262 replies

LadyBlaBlah · 08/10/2010 09:23

I know lots of people agree with this in principle (especially going by the Daily Mail comments)

If you can't afford a child, don't have one. Simple.

But it really is not that simple-like all these things that make judgements on those on benefits

Where does this policy end up - eugenics and enforced sterilisation?

Based on what criteria?

Starving children?

And this is all in the context that Nick Clegg was bleating on increasing international aid to lift children out of poverty in his conference last week - "look at me and how good I am to the little starving children in Africa". The hypocrisy staggers me. By the same rules, Africans should stop having children too. That should be policy rather than giving them aid - right?

Desmond Tutu said "My humanity is bound up in yours, for we can only be human together." I love that quote. It is simply a reflection on us how we chose to treat other human being.

This poor bashing is really really depressing me. It is daily It is worse than I imagined it could be.

OP posts:
gingercat12 · 10/10/2010 18:07

ornamentalcabbage We are in the same situation. It does not entitle me to judge others, though. The humane attitude is to help those less fortunate than us.

ornamentalcabbage · 10/10/2010 18:29

I'll judge who I like.

complimentary · 10/10/2010 18:48

"GARCIA" as it was me who posted the thread about foreigners having more children. I shall make my views clear to you. Some groups of foreigners do have more children than the indeginous British who are in fact on the decline. In fact "another" MNs have said that in Scotland, the Scotttish are so far on the decline that they will need, immigrants to feel the job vacancies. Apart from that I do not want to pay for other peoples children, whether they are 10 children from a Somalia family or 10 British born children. Of course there are always exeptions to any rule, and say if people fall out of work, or divorce etc , then we must support people on hard times. We should also support people who have disabled children and the respite care that these family will need. If people deliberatley have children they cannot support I feel that is a different case, and asperation should be rewarded and not fecklessness. Why should I support the workshy and irresponsible person/persons, when myself and my husband have to work hard to support our children, so that any lazy bugger can stay in bed til 1pm in the afternoom? No, support the really needy and the others should get out of bed and get a job!

jackstarbright · 10/10/2010 18:59

Cinnamon -.

"No, it's an argument for more support for children and families who need it, not less"

I guess it depends what you mean by 'support' though.

Under Labour families in the bottom 10% income group had a significant increase in income. And yet education outcomes and social mobility have not shown a commensurate improvement.

Generational benefit reliance also appears to have increased. I don't think there is enough evidence to show a causal relationship - but it's a worrying thought -.no?

WarwickHunt666 · 10/10/2010 19:25

Complimentary - You cite foreign fiddlers as being 'worse' than those from the UK. However, my view is the opposite - UK fiddlers are worse than foreigners as there is nothing patriotic in 'ripping off' the hard working UK taxpayer! The golden rule is simple - if you can't afford to have and raise kids - don't have'em! Simples!

Ripeberry · 10/10/2010 19:48

If anything we should be having more children to support all the old people.
Why should we stop having children when the rest of the world just carries on and WE have to pay for them?

bb99 · 10/10/2010 20:59

Good evening.

Continuing.

Personally I don't think it's unrealistic to have some sort of cap on benefits ie. making work pay (more than benefits).

When I came off benefits and got back to work, many moons ago, I don't think I would have bothered had I made myself worse off. People who are benefit claimants are not stupid, some infact are remarkeably clever - they can do the maths...and can understand time pressure imperatives.

We have an awful (IMVHO) lot of carrot in this country - ATM - lots of access to free health care, welfare that surpases other developed countries in the West (read USA), free education that is open to all, regardless of economic background or ability, state pensions, freedom of expression, legally protected rights including equality legislation, some social housing and home ownership schemes, in some cases (though not as much as during the 1970's and 1980's) a degree of social mobility.

Oh and police who do not carry guns and NO CIVIL WAR.

Sounds v. v. lovely to me - lots and lots of carrots and reasons to be involved in society.

I am not saying it is perfect, things never are, but on balance, the UK is a fantastic place to live, even if you have a squillion kids and lose your job.

However, there is currently very little stick in so far as encouraging the FEW individuals who DO exist who are unwilling to be responsible for themselves and ARE fully able to be responsible for themselves.

It is fairly common in other European countries to lose benefits if you aren't making any effort to help yourself. It is not as common to just accept that some children will be raised from the cradle to the grave, on benefits. IMO it's just not a healthy way to live - for either the adults or the children (especially as by defenition, if you are a child being raised on benefits you are much more likely to be classed as economically deprived and poor).

In the Netherlands if you are unlucky enough for your life plans to go astray - and life is never predictable - then when your youngest child is school aged you are EXPECTED to get back to work. If you are unable to get back to work, or are unable to rejoin your previous career / job due to injury, then you are supported to retrain into another career. If you don't, you get less money from the state - it's simple.

(annecdotal evidence - my Dutch friend was permanently injured by her XP and left to raise 2 small children. The neck injury prevented her from returning to work as a Nursery School Teacher - a career she loved and missed - but when her youngest was school aged she had to retrain to work in a different field and is now totally independant of the State and v. v. happy)

People still have the choice not to get back to work, or to have as many children as they want, or in some cases start work, but there are consequences to their actions. The people who claim benefits are treated like adults.

With the best will in the world, some people are too unmotivated to want to work and some people are too unmotivated to want to take responsibility for their own actions - we all do it at times...non of us are perfect regardless of our income or achievements in life. The less well off and benefit claimants among us are no different...

Personally I would like to see welfare reform that enables and actively encourages people to get back their independence from the state as I honestly believe it is a more posative way of life to be independant of benefits - if at all possible.

Society does view people who do not earn their own money as second class citizens whether or not they are supported by the state or their partner - of course this does not apply if you are super rich and have a private income Wink. I'm currently a SAHM and lots of people don't view this as a proper job!

complimentary · 10/10/2010 22:29

BB99
Thankyou for your input, I enjoyed reading it
and it was well put. I'm a stay at home mum, and many/most of my friends work and have children, and they envy me. It certainly is a'proper job' Smile

ornamentalcabbage · 11/10/2010 12:25

BB99 I also enjoyed reading your post and agree with the points you made.

devoncreamtea · 20/10/2010 19:29

Are you for real complimentary?

merrymouse · 20/10/2010 21:06

"tell me what town or planet you live on where CHRISTIANS are have millions of kids."

The state of Utah. (I know that isn't in the UK, and I don't live there, but just saying - it's on this planet). I think Mormons are increasingly seen as mainstream in the US.

Also, Ireland, apparently. (Although interestingly, Italy, not so much).

I know large families aren't really promoted by the C of E, but, then as far as I am aware, the Episcopal church isn't really where it's at in terms of growth.

Jackstini · 21/10/2010 10:06

Just so the facts are there for anyone debating...
Size of family by ethnicity[[http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=458
]]
Size of family by religion www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=961
Am only 1/3rd of the way through the thread though so will finish reading now

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