Jesus said, "No-one comes to the Father except through Me." Dicuss

[Tortington]

Jesus said, "No-one comes to the Father except through Me."

What i don't understand about this phrase comes on two levels.

1. supposing there is a corner of the world where a child dies never having heard of jesus. Do they get some 'Jesus' lessons in purgatory before St. Peter given them a golden ticket? or do they go to hell - hell being never knowing gods grace ( i believe)

2. the Jesus i read about, the kindly person bringing diferent peoples together - helping hte lowly samarian - pro women pretty much poster boy for the race equality commission - He would do this?

i'd like a debate about this rather than any hethens athiests agnostics telling me that god doesn't exist if you don't mind. ta.

athiests and agnostics just sit back and watch the christians fight it out

Hi,

What Jesus means by no-man coming to the father except by me means, that no one will be able to reach God or have a relationship with God unless they come by him. Coming by him means coming by way of the cross, repentance, new birth.

Purgatory is a catholic doctrine and is extra-biblical, it cannot be found in the bible at all.

Children are all covered by the grace of God until they reach an age of understanding, usually around 13, but it can be earlier or later. A child who is brought up in the love of God and who feels the love of God will often of their own mind realise that they have to have a right relationship with God.

Children who die before this time, either through miscarraige or abortions or just before the age of understanding tare all automatically with the Father.

Your point number two, Jesus is a loving person but his is also righteous. He loved us enough to die for us and our sins, however his nature also cannot tolerate sin, so after having provided a way to the father through repentance, and a changed life he expects us to take it. When we look at the nature of God/Jesus we must take in the whole counsel of the word of God, God is Love yes, but God is also wrath.

Another Jesus has been created by people who want to take away the side of Jesus that requires repentance, they have made hime into some kind of new age, soft gooey fuzzy. This is not the true nature of Jesus as shown in the Bible. Jesus loved the little children but he also took a whip to the money-changers in the temple.

It is important that we let the Bible only give the true nature of God and Jesus.

Like you said I am not up for debate with athiests, should you feel you would like to abuse me then go ahead, as the bible tells me I am blessed when you do.

me abuse you or athiests?

so a 13 year old brought up in a hindu family had to be a born again christian to be with god.

not likley is it.

and the other thing that gets me is that god wouldn't shine his light on a good person - who did good things all his or her life - but didn't believe in jesus

and if my god is that kind of god - hes not a good being me thinks

If I've understood correctly (not a Catholic nor even a practising Christian, but have an interest in theology), until not so long ago Catholic doctrine would have taught that a child who died unbaptised would go to Limbo (i.e. to Hell or at least to a place where God is not). But the Catholic Church (I'm assuming you're Catholic because of the mention of Purgatory...) dropped the doctrine of Limbo a few years ago, so I am guessing that means that a child who dies without having been formally entered into the Christian faith through baptism would now be eligible for Heaven. I'm not sure whether a child who dies before being of an age to commit any actual sins would need to go through Purgatory or not (I understand Purgatory as a place where the soul un-learns the sinful behaviour which it learned during its earthly life... if the only 'flaw' in a young child who dies is not having been baptised, then I'm not sure what Purgatory could do for it, and I'd be more inclined to believe (if I were inclined to believe at all) that in such cases the soul gets a 'get into Heaven free' card as a special movement of Grace.

The crux of your question (and I don't have an answer to it, sorry) is how you understand 'through me'. You could read it 'formally' to mean 'though having been baptised into the Church', or you could read it more loosely as meaning something like 'by accepting and trying to live according to the things which I stand for'. If we accept that Christ lived as a real human being on earth - that he was like us, in other words - then we could assume that we come to God 'through him' by accepting our human lives with all their frailties (Christ also suffered and died), but at the same time by trying to live according to the model provided by Christ.

I could go for that last understanding of the term. But I do realise that it's a bit 'airy-fairy'. However, like I said, this is from the position of a sympathetic observer rather than an insider, if you like.

Sorry if this is a bit waffly... I'm a bit sleepy!

the purgatory thing was me being flippant.

i love the second explaination of 'through me'

love it!

i'm choosing that one

Jesus said, "You must be born again." John 3.6

When we accept the forgiveness of Christ for our sin, we are born again, and can be accepted by the Father through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

born = metaphore for a new startof doing good things?

but what if you never heard of Jesus? somewhere in the world

what happened before jesus - did everyone just get to go to heaven?

i always assumed 'through me' was reffering to his actions, character, speech and example.
so he came with the message to worship the one true god. he gave examples on how to worship in the correct manner. as he was sent by god, he had the god given wisdom, as all the prophets and messangers had, on how to correctly worship. (not individual, "i want to do it this way", but in the way that god has decided he should be worshipped). in the garden of getsemony (sp?) jesus prayed with his face to the floor in prostration to his lord. his followers would then copy his actions of prayer, adn so would be confident knowing they were praying in a manner pleasing to their lord.

crap typos, baby in one hand!

sorry, to add, by that it would mean " no one comes to the Father (ie no one earns the pleasure of their lord), except by following the example and way, of the one whom was sent by Him (ie in this case, it was jesus who was sent to his people at that time). so, 'through me'.

Concerning those who lived before Jesus, we have to look at the nature of God.

God is a loving, merciful God, and he will do right by those people who were in relationship with him. We can be fairly sure that Abraham, for example, is in heaven.

In these in-between times, we have to follow what it says in the New Testament. In order to have a relationship with God the Father, we make a decision to transform our lives and follow Jesus and his teachings. We accept that we are free to have a relationship with God because Jesus took on the sins of the world and paid the penalty for them by dying on the cross. He conquered death when he rose again three days later.

He paid the penalty for everyone, then and in the future so that all of us are able to have a relationship with God.

Those people in the world who do not know God or Jesus are not in relationship with hime, so when they die, they are not losing anything. However, again, God as a merciful God may do something different. We don't know that because the Gospel is only addressing those who do know Jesus and not those who have never heard of him. The parting message for us was to take know chances and tell others about Jesus.

Jesus said, "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." John 10:9

The way to be received into Heaven by our Holy God is to have our sin washed away.

"For God did not send his Son [Jesus] into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17

The Bible explains how to come to God the Father through Jesus, the Son.

It's by believing that Jesus took the punishment for your sins on the cross. And then by committing yourself to following Him.

Salvation is a free gift - you can't earn it by good behaviour, by trying to live to a Christian standard.

Living a good Christian life comes out of having a relationship with God through the salvation of Christ.

It is possible to worship Jesus because he is God - God, the son, part of the holy trinity.

Riven, it's about the Trinity. Jesus IS God. Jesus was God made flesh. I always think of Jesus as being God diluted into human form, so he is somehow diminished in order to be human, but is still essentially divine.

It is a head bender, the Trinity.

You can say that again, chicken

As I understand it (I am prepared to be corrected) God came to the world as Jesus to create the new Covenant with man. It was a sort-of 'wiping the slate clean' effort. Jesus' humanity takes away some of his 'God-ness', but He is sinless because of his divinity. He is both more than a man, and less than God.

I think

God (the Father) sent Jesus (the Son) to earth so we could see more clearly who God is and so that Jesus would die on the cross to cleanse from sin anyone who believes in Him.

"The virgin [Mary] will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" ? which means "God with us." Matthew 1.23

Jesus told his disciples that He had come down from Heaven.

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever." John 6.51

Those who believe in Him will "live forever", i.e. enjoy eternity in Heaven.

Good works are the result of having faith. They are not a condition of faith.

Good works are not particularly a choice. If you have made the decision to transform your life, then good works are inevitable.

Salvation is through faith alone, and is a gift freely given.

Ah, no, you don't just need faith. Christians are called to be 'Jesus-like', so to follow His example in all areas of life. Jesus' ultimate teaching was to love God, and to love each other. I suppose you don't have true faith as a Christian if you conveniently ignore the bit about doing unto others as you would have done unto you (such as your example). It is the same with all faiths. I doubt that there is a religion that hasn't been tainted by intolerance and hatred.

But you do these things in the power of the holy spirit. You don't do them under your own steam. You do not have to do good works in order to saved. Good works are an indication that you have already been saved.

Right you are, Five

In my rather roundabout way, I was trying to say that true faith leads to trying to lead as 'good' a life as possible. Someone who claims faith, but treats others badly, does not truly have faith. Moreover, they are choosing to go against what they know God wants.