"In the garden of gentle sanity, May you be bombarded by coconuts of wakefulness". Daily meditation - All Welcome

[mangosTrickyrice]

Quote is from Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, whoever he may be. I found it in Pema Chodron's Places that Scare You and it made me laugh.

This thread is for anyone at all who's interested in mindfulness and meditation. We had posters on the last thread from various Buddhist traditions, Christians lapsed and practising, plus your wishy-washy agnostics . Some of us aim for 10 minutes of meditation practice each day, others focus on mindfulness in daily living, and still others focus on naps horizontal meditation. So really anything goes. The original thread is here if you have a month or 2 spare to read, otherwise just jump in below.

mango - apart from that piece of extreme naughtiness, i am v glad to get your update, and wish you much patience and fortitude for the next few weeks
vezzie - i read your other thread and sympathise. btw, i have muesli every morning and woe betide anyone who tries to alter my ingrained breakfast habits to which i am UNHEALTHILY ATTACHED! so i think you're doing very well fielding the vast spectrum of advice on offer to you over there. big hugs. i hope whatever awful thing befell you recently is becoming more manageable. thinking of you xxx

HI Black Duck
Welcome.
I've just ordered the M through D book so am not able to reply with any knowledge. (Fingers crossed my book should arrive tomorrow) BUT if you go to the beginning of this thread - you will see Mango refers to her original thread. On the original thread - close to the beginning - a few people mention the M through D book and all seem v positive about it. If you have a spare half hour you should find it those recommendations

If you want a simple life - just look the book up on AMazon and read the reviews. (It costs £10.40 on Amazon)

I know exactly what you mean about the black dog. I find I'm happily coasting along with life and then suddenly the black dog comes and bites me on the bum and sends my confidence spiralling downwards. V annoying.

Hope you're having a good day. Do come and chat here anytime.

Katie - you're using jargon ! I had to wikipedia what Koans are - now I know. Yes - bloody strange. I just thought Mango was referring to some strange noise her DD was making!!

PFS

Sorry blackduck, missed your post. The M through D book basically combines CBT- based ideas about what depression is, with mindfulness meditations for broadening your perspective and hopefully not sliding back into the pit.

So, e.g. a common symptom of depression is exhaustion, so to try to combat that you start cutting things out of your life that seem "unnecessary" so you can rest instead, but before you know it you've actually made your life much smaller and less rich than it used to be, which is... depressing.

Lots of our thought patterns when we're depressed, about how to stop feeling this way and start feeling better, actually feed our depression ("What if I never feel any different? What if I waste my whole life feeling this way? Why can't I be normal?"). The idea of the meditations is that you start to cultivate a broader perspective, so you don't deny the existence of those nutty unhelpful thoughts, but they don't completely take over your consciousness either. They're just thoughts, and you know they'll be replaced in a minute by other thoughts, so you hopefully don't need to hang onto them and fight with them so much (which is exhausting).

It's designed to be used when you're not at the clinically depressed stage (you need to learn some of the skills when your mind isn't working so utterly against you!), so now is a good time to start investigating.

There's loads more in there too, those are just some things that 'spoke' to me and that I remember finding useful. I also really like the guided meditations on the CD that comes with the book, it was just enough structure to get me started.

Blackduck - and welcome to thread - forgot that bit in my eagerness to waffle. I do really like that book.

Pink - don't worry, I displayed my entire knowledge of koans in that one post.

Vezzie - how are you doing? Thinking of you xx

Hope all are well.

Lots of lovely thoughts on here, sorry to be lurking rather than fully participating! Thanks for explaining about the group meditation, I will be there if I can.

Have you all discovered www.audiodharma.org yet? Fabulous resource - my top tip is Gil's series of talks on the five hindrances, and any of his annual talks on the four noble truths. During my pregnancy, birth of DC2 & recovery I have returned to the 4 nobles many times, saying to myself "Suffering exists - now what am I clinging to?"

Also offering myself metta whenever upset or in a panic - so much better than the liberal dollops of judgement I used to rain down on any spot or blemish of my own...

Audio Dharma also offers a very moving talk by Ronna Kabatznik (sp?) about her experiences of supporting survivors of the boxing day tsunami. She offers some guided meditations. I have found her "Guided Skillful Recollection" meditation very helpful and as she says, a useful "antidote to depression."

Pinkfluffyslippers - great and very literal use of child benefit there, no arguments from me!

mangoestrickyrice Great advice about preparing oneself with a toolkit for adversity.

Vezzie - I don't know the circumstances, but hope you are okay.

Still haven't found any time to meditate, but have just thought that I could manage a quickie while feeding the baby - he tends to doze off, so there is stillness and silence for a quarter of an hour or more! Who needs a bell when you can have a baby burp, eh?

Hi Mangos thanks for the summary of the book.
Wasn't ignoring you yesterday - just very busy day! I do try a bit of stillness at the end of my pilates class, but feel the need to investigate this more as I am sure I have lived/live my life at top speed and it has always been 'what's next' rather than appreciating the here and now. The depression thing has always been there - I had a full on black dog this week (and I can range through emotions then), although I am fairly lucky that they don't tend to last long (although the after effects linger if that makes sense).
Anyway I will try to set aside a month or so to go through the previous thread and look at how I might bring the idea of mindfulness into my life...
Have a lovely, peaceful Sunday everybody.

Thanks for the warm welcome to the "coconut tree".

Finding it hard to get into. Probably mostly due to the fact as a child from 10 y.o. I was "made" to meditate everyday. From what I have read/listened to so far about Mindfulness it has made me want to discover more. Baby steps I guess.....

I doubt I'll be the most regular poster but I'll be following with interest.

Hello,

Thank you for all the messages of support - very much appreciated.

I managed 5 minutes sitting this morning which was the first time in quite a few days. Must try to keep up the daily thing.

Thanks to those on the other thread too.

Mangostickyrice, on the subject of the M through D book: are there any specifically CBT based ideas in it? I have a sense of mistrust of CBT. I think it can be a good first step for some people but I think it is too simplistic for many cases.

I might be missing the point of it, but I see it as flawed because:

• sometimes depression is telling you something and you need to hear what that is. Not buy some alternative equally unconstructive burble to play over the negative, unconstructive burble of your depression - like trying to mask the smell of rotting food with air fresheners instead of emptying the bin and cleaning the kitchen.

• sometimes you are right when you believe bad things. Not always, but sometimes. for instance, when I meet new groups of people I do, objectively, make friends more slowly, and fewer of them, than for instance my friend k. When I am down, instead of thinking "why aren't people drawn to me like they are to k? Oh but surely they are, I am just being negative". It is more constructive to think, "why aren't people drawn to me like they are to k? well she actively approaches them more than I do and if I want to have as many friends as she has, I could try doing that too. But then she is never alone and that would do my head in. and she is very uncomfortable in new situations without a "new best friend" which often means she misses out on different ways of observing things independently. so what can I learn from k while still doing things my own way enough to be comfortable?"

I see (very much as a non-expert) mindfulness-based approaches to depression as being almost the opposite to CBT in that mindfulness is not frenetically trying to pump fake "positivity" at the problem, but about letting things unfold without being such an immediate crazy threat: breathing through pain rather than trying to walk with a broken leg and a forced smile, and being open to whatever unlikely direction the paramedics may come from.

Sorry about all the terrible analogies.

I am still feeling not great, not really able to talk about it but I really appreciate everyone who mentioned me on here.

Hi vezzie just wanted to lend my support. I understand completely what you are saying, don't really have the knowledge to be able to offer advice on the merits or otherwise of CBT but wanted to say that I hear you and I like your analogies. Lovely to see you back on here.

Had a lovely weekend celebrating Diwali (froma Hindu background although wouldn't really class self as a 'believer') lots of lighting candles and fireworks and singing and took DS to a play about Diwali that he loved and was reenacting with his Playmobil knights earlier today. Off to the States (Las Vegas of all places) for a conference for a few days so will try and remain mindful and centred and not too dislocated by the weirdness of the whole place coupled with jetlag.....not to mention the strange sensation of being without the children for 5 whole nights.

Hi All
vezzie I've only just taken delivery of the book and have just started it. It seems to use Mindfulness and CBT and meditation.... Hopefully someone who's used the book will reply with more knowledge! The good news is a couple of hte authors are British so it's not all Californian gurus if you know what I mean....

Lady G - Diwali sounds lovely. Enjoy Las Vegas.

BTW I found a useful section on the London Buddhist Centre website called Breathworks - which uses MCBT to treat depression / addictions.

Blackduck thanks for the audiodharma.org link - really interesting.

Have a good day all.

Can I ask a BIG question --- how do those of you with Buddhist leanings / knowledge get your collective heads around the idea of reincarnation? Is it just recycling but with a different name?

I greatly admire the Dalai Lama but when I read about him being a reincarnation of a previous Lama then I get all confused.

Would love some ideas of this.....
Off to have a bath reading Dalai Lama's book on Happiness at Work...or somesuch optimistic title!!

Metta to all.

PFS

PS: RE: CBT - I had counselling and the therapist used some CBT methods, within 6 sessions I'd ended a v unhealthy relationship with ex P, and was engaged to my lovely DH. I've never been more contented! (Purpose of mentioning this - is that CBT does work successfully for some people...) As Justa says there are some idiotic practitioners out there but also some v good ones.

Thanks Justa for your v thought provoking reply -which is giving me lots of food for thought. Wish I knew my Bible better to know the story of the man blind from birth.... I didn't even know Christians had even considered the concept of reincarnation.

I can understand your point of view Re: disagreeing with the idea of being stuck in a cycle of reincarnation depending on whether you've led a virtuous life.( if that's true I'd probably be back as a cockroach!!)

Re: Dalai Lama - I always think of him as such a good guy that he couldn't be wrong on reincarnation and this is where I get v woolly / fluffy. I read a story of one Tibetan Buddhist monk (name escapes me) who was reincarnated in a young baby in the West. And the small child spoke words of Tibetan yet had never been to Tibet and his parents were European. All v strange from my Western perspective... but I can't discount it.....

OK off to tackle the washing up in a mindful loving way.

PFS xxx

PS: Justa- I admire the fact your faith means you can so wholeheartedly believe in the concept of a loving God.

Katie - what is Guru Sarah's latest book like - have you had time to read it ? I want to order it for C**S

Metta to all. xx

Hello All!
Exhausted from a night of hanging out with a small, vomiting boy (much better today) so no time for much, but wanted to say hi, and administer hugs, and tell fluffy in particular that i am - as ever - totally absorbed by Guru S's latest offering. You will love it, PFS, get your xmas order in now! I am onto the 4th chapter, which is about explaining the ways of the world to one's children - without getting caught in the trap of being too rigidly attached to one's own views (natch )
...previous chapters have covered topics such as 'stress' and 'boredom'. all very interesting and directly relevant to one's life as ever.
Very interested in the reincarnation dialogue but too woolly-brained to be able to contribute much. I am undecided, but like fluffy am such a passionate fan of the Dalai Lama's that I find it hard to discount reincarnation entirely.
My next book after GS's is a book about the Dalai Lama by Pico Iyer - will report back!
My sitting has been a little less regular than usual but am trying for mindful walks whenever possible and also trying to remember the background stillness that Eckhart Tolle always refers to and which we can all access at any moment if we simply take a breath and remember that it is there...also trying to be positive about things i used to resent, like driving. after all,I drive in almost exclusively beautiful surroundings on virtually empty roads, and have a chance to be silent and contemplative while doing so - that is my current attempt to reframe what i used to consider 'dead' time behind the wheel. as for the carbon footprint aspect of living in the country, i'll draw a veil over that for now!!! X

Ooh, lots to think about here...

swissmiss - made to meditate? That sounds, um, misguided. You may have noticed that we have some Amazon addicts people who like to read on the thread, I read about meditation for years before actually trying any.

vezzie - see when I was packing, I knew I should've brought the book with me, but couldn't actually think of a reason to. So entirely from memory, there's no false positivity that I remember (and which would make me ), and not much emphasis on consciously changing your thoughts - the idea is that with regular practice, your perspective changes anyway. And that when we start to practice, it's important to let go of your 'goals' (e.g. I'm going to do this for 8 weeks and be 'cured') and just go with it for a while, and see what happens.

pink - that's the most dramatic therapy story I've ever heard, I think! You must have been very ready for the changes you made.

I'm going to save reincarnation for another post, after breakfast - justa is very thought-provoking, as usual

justa, I love how comfortable you are with casual heresy, makes you very easy to converse with

This is all very theoretical for me, I can only really say what I think of the idea, not whether I believe it or not. If that makes any kind of sense... Thinking and reading too much about this stuff prevented me from actually meditating for a long time. I?d come across the ?western insight? approach, which has all the Buddhist bits taken out and is just meditation techniques (it focuses on improving quality of life, rather than aiming for enlightenment, etc), but I know a lot of religious Buddhists here in Asia find it quite difficult to accept westerners who pick and choose ? using Buddhism only as a philosophy and (sometimes) denying that it?s a religion at all. Anyway, eventually I decided that practice was better than no-practice, regardless of these issues (which I haven?t really resolved).

Reincarnation ? I like the idea that however badly you mess up, it's not over - there's always another chance (unlike the fire-and-brimstone version of Christianity, where you get a specific length of time on the planet and if you?re not ?saved? at the end, you go to hell. And no one tells you how long you have ). Reincarnation and karma give me a sense that in any given moment, I have choices, and with those choices, I create my own future. (Of course, the choice might be mostly internal ? I?m going to resent this massively, or I?m going to try to accept what?s here). The sense of personal responsibility is quite empowering.

On the other hand, when I look at the world I just feel that?s it?s wrong to think that everyone is where they deserve to be. Ironically to me, far far too often reincarnation/karma is used as an excuse to do nothing about injustice, and abdicate responsibility on the basis that you don?t want to interfere with someone else?s karma.

I think justice is the central issue for me here, and I'm not happy with the theory of Christianity as I understand it (imperfectly, for sure) but I do like the actions it motivates in people. On the other hand, I prefer the theory of Buddhism, but am frustrated at the (in)actions it motivates in people and I feel uncomfortable with applying it to real situations.

Gaah! Am not explaining very well. Apologies if reference to "theory" is offensive, am just trying to distinguish between ideas and actions.

mangos - misguided is a good way of putting it. i had a formal initiation etc but age 10 i don't think i really understood what it was all about. i didn't exactly go to a mainstream school but i'm not going to say anymore than that on here.

hello everyone

Hi Everyone....
Yes this business of reincarnation really is an interesting subject. Out of interest does anyone know what the "party line" is of Friends of Western Buddhist Order on reincarnation ? I'm just intrigued to know what I'd come back as...

Justa - yes, I'd also like to hear your views on the Anglican/ RC announcement yesterday.

Ok must away and do supermarket sweep - but just wish I hadn't eaten that last slice of chocolate cake. (Attachment issues again!!)

PFS

xxx

PS: RE: My CBT experience - without going into the boring detail (which are actually v entertaining) my life was transformed from being something like an Eastenders script to the more sedate life of the Archers.

hurrah, justa. you are my kind of christian

pfs - love the transition from eastenders to the arches description! re the FWBO - not been near them in ages due to the geographical ishoos, but from my readings i think there is a spectrum of beliefs under their (liberal) umbrella. will try to find out more though!

back soon xxx