Can we talk about karma?

[DuffyFluckling]

I see a lot of references to karma on Mumsnet, usually the gist is that someone who has done something bad will get their comeuppance.

But terrible things happen to good people. And good things happen to bad people. How does karma fit in to that?

I do not subscribe to any organised religion. I do have a moral code though, and very much believe in doing good things and doing the right thing. I'm not entirely sure why though.

Anyone have any thoughts?

To simplify, karma happens in this life because of actions in a previous life (good and bad). You use this life to be better thus earning less bad karma so that next time around you can be born into an even better life

here

Not a believer, but when I first head of reincarnation and karma I thought it a fairer system than the standard religious one (One chance to suck up to the boss to get let off for a crime you never committed in the first place) It would mean everyone got a fair chance wouldn't it. A poor or sick person now would get a healthy full life next time around.

If you really believed in it you'd have to reconsider some other things. For example: Should you sympathise with someone suffering if they are paying for past bad behaviour? Should you resent someone who has it good since with karma they have (or will) pay for it.

What karma means to me is that our actions all have consequences. Many times unintended consequences-so we are incurring karma all the time. I think that as far as Buddhism or Hinduism is concerned that karma is considered like a destiny-as a sum total of all the actions/non actions taken in one's life.

It's not exactly a straightfoprward earn for bad thing though, not in all religions anyhow (in Jainism its a bit different- a heavy sticky substance that literally holdds you back from floating to Heaven IIRC, they have Heavens hells and reincarnation in Jainism)

It's about balance. So if you're very dependant / outgoing / sporty in this life, in the next you'll be independent, introverted, inactive

It all ahs to add together to create a balanced, complete whole over as many lifetimes as possible.... 'bad' karma is mroe like extremes of energy, they need a baalnce

if that makes sense?

Karma in my true experience is ........dragging my neighbour to the dentist literally sitting on her while he looked at her tooth that had broken in 2,listening to her cry 2 days before and ever since she went......

and

next day your own tooth shattering whilst eating doritos and having an emergency appointment next day to have tooth rebuilt .

I hate karma. It is a hopeless philosophy. It makes people who shouldn't be content with their lot, content with their lot. Downtrodden, underprivileged people oppressed in their underclass. And I hate the pappy western view that there's no harm in it.

People who use the concept of Karma in a 'they will get what's coming to them' kind of way really irritate me.

Onager everyone gets a fair chance? You should see the consequences. A wealthy middle class accepting that their society is built on some members of it having to carry shit in baskets on their heads all their lives. But it's ok, because in the next life they might get to be what? a rickshaw cyclist?

Well, its a bit more complex than that (though ultimately I agree with you I have to say)- the rules about who does what in Hinduism for example are set down in The Law of Manu, and I suppose if you have to carry shit it's probably better to do so thinking it'll be better next time, but.....

Yep, it's pretty devisive. Nobody singds that 'the rich man in his castle / the poor man at his gate / God made them high and lowly / and oredered their estate' verse any more because its so awful, but maynbe haven't quite cottoned on to the Karma thing yet.

Perhaps it is more complex, but the results are very simple indeed. And nobody should have to carry shit in a country which has put a rocket on the moon, with the excuse that it's Karma.

None of my business: not my culture: not my faith: not my country. I am allowed to dislike it thought.

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Bloss, by living out your Dharma- life path- as prescribed; ultimately all Hindu's are supposed to follow that.

Not sure so much about Buddhism but there is a lot of Buddhist literature (esp. childrens) where animals do deliberate acts of kindness etc so can only presume that they believe animals are cpable of these.

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You can be a 'bad dog'.

Love reading these responses. Tbh, when people talk about karma on MN in a "don't you worry, karma will take care of him" sort of way it really irritates me too. It seems fundamentally flawed to me when used as a tit for tat righting of wrongs because it assumes that the world is fair. The more I read, the less I like it as religious doctrine too, but am more circumspect about critisising religions I know little about.

I think karma is fabulous if society were equal in all other ways.

It is of course not.

it's no more a control than other faith set ups though (though really read the law of manu for ultimate..... never amrry anyone with red hair. ER???? LOL)

Confucianism was deliberately set up as control; I suppose at least you can admire the honesty

will look at that cow Q Bloss, though make it a donkey as cow is sacred LOL

it relies on society not being equal in other ways

I should think it evolved to deal with that fact of life

Well that depends entirely on whether you are a believer in that faith doesn't it?

All religions evole; you gain things like formalChurch, doctrines , texts (back to the law of manu).... a religion could well have come putrely from the teachings of a charismatic preacher who genuinely beleived in his messge yet would still most likely gain that control efffect

As sopmeone who tries to follow a Quaker path I can see the difference between Big- Church Christianity and other types but the starting point is the same.

If you accept the existence of the Buddha then similar I would think; the more common now forms of Buddhism may be mroea ccessible than the monastery based versions of antiquity but also controlmore people as a result.

Hinduism originates soemwhere amongst the Indus valley civilisations but I think it probably evolved mroe as an attempt to explain than control, my guess is that the controlling class (Brahmans) grabbed onto that and ran pretty quickly and effectively, but its exact origins are very much lost in time.

I think humans look for means to exploit people, especially a certain type of umn in the sort of evolving societies these faiths come from. I don#t beleive faith are simply ame up from thin air but I do think their developmental path is manipulted, absolutely. The removal of Gnosticism is a key indicator of that; a branch that teaches you should gain your own understanding will never submit properly to central control... declare them as heretics and keep the plan on track!

That doesn't mean all religions are right (although I'm doing something tomorrow on here that includes universalism LOL) but I think most ahd fairly innocent start points.

but it's logically impossible

it's completely unsustainable

how can you have karma if everyone is equal in all ways and has the same amount of pleasure and pain, success and failure?

Right

So i think (and its an educated guess) that is evolved as a way fopr peopleto understand why their lives were crap, etc

But also karma is only part f a faith- my guess is that the stuff such as the Gods came first (we know ther are fertillity tributes in the Indus Valley remains after all,presumabl used as a focal point for worship).

By the time we get to the Vedas ? Bhagavad gita etc we have a monotheistic aith of extreme complexity, but it would ahve got there by stages; presumably prorotype- Hinduism was the polytheistic its your fault if your lifes crap you didnt sacrifice enough variet7y.

Actually that could elad on to karma couldnt it? If its your ault coz yo didnt give the god enough Puja, then it could well be that develops into a fault baed / energy based ' karmic philolosophy.

Sorry for typos, baby feeding LOL

that's ok.. impressed!

but it doesn't work in a utopia, basically

all faiths must manage and incorporate and build in the bad times

Christians just have to make do with "mysterious ways" and "being tested"

but Christianity and Islam have also built into their faiths human altruism, in the forms of alms giving and self-sacrifice and so on

it is a principle and duty: not a means of self-progression

if there is some western ideal to do with karma it must be enjoyed in reasonably comfortable surroundings I think.. to witness the degradation of utter misery, and believe that the sufferers find it easier because they will step up a rung next time, is exceptionally difficult

Actually Buddhism has a altrusitic aspect in more modern times, known as the Bodhisattva; a person who has renounced reincarnation and nirvana in order to continually return to earth to bring ohters into enlightenment, Amitabha is a main one. So it does encompass that as well, after all that is pretty altruistic.

Jainism is pretty heavy on it too, albit with a karmic formet: the rules of Jainism are mssively strict and involve things like (for the mendivants) not lighting a fire in case you harm fire deities.
Of course,altruism is pretty debatable LOL , did a year of Psych in my degree and it was a main topic-plus there's the whole selfish gene thing. I do beleive in it, but think its very rare and most altruism can be explained in other ways.

I think Hinduism has a lot of good in it, as a whiole; some of the ideas in the Vedas are wonderful- Atman, cyclical nature of relaity, Brahmanial Hinduism. But probably becuase it has grown up in a society that has been at the extreme of hardship and now,has both extremes contained within (possibly ahrder?) it has had to develop in a way that fits that. There are versions of it out there that are really very different- my favourite is a chap alled vivekananda who was fantastic at the start of the last century (that might out me but Im only using this name coz I forgot to change abck LOL, will change back soon). He rpeaches a sort of religious Universalism and is against the startified classs and caste system. There are a few ther types also that think like that.

But in oder to step outsode whatever faith you are in and see the faults and then deal with them by switching you have to be a very determined person I think. For every dogmatic variant (catholicism, CofW, Brahmanical hinduism) there is a less startified choice available within the same faith, it's just that faith is mroe than that- it's not only our community if we believe, but usually we are part of the chosen class....... why would we give that up? And that then self perpetuates doesn't it?We choose leaders like ourselves, pass rules in the same vein.... it'shuman nature.

just want to keep this in my threads - am looking into buddhism a lot at the moment, and finding it very helpful for all sorts of things, but this high level karma stuff I find very difficult. The best interpretation of it for me was by Jon Kabat Zinn (I think, may have been Pema Chodron) where they spoke more about Karma being something that has effect over the course of one lifetime. For example repeated acts of generousity make one a generous person with all the emotional benefit that can bring. Repeated acts of violence make one a violent person, with all the negative energies that can throw up. So in a sense you do reap what you sow, but in a tangible way. I liked this explanation as it seems fair and sensible, people can change their destiny in an internal way at least, ok, maybe not their lot (ie the shit shovellers vs kings debate - but then that's just not fair whatever way you look at it)

That makes sense (BTW I was briefnamechange LOL), I like that way of explaining it.

There's similar in Christianity I think- the beleif that Hell is being absent from God? if you think that acting uncharitably or against Jesus' teachings makes you further from God then, you would get hell in thsi lifetime (can you tell mya rea of study ATM is on Universalism LOL? )