"Why we should no longer be cowed by the chattering classes ruling Britain who sneer at Christianity"

[BetsyBoop]

Just thought I'd share I found this a really interesting "Easter essay" in today's Mail.

My Dad used to run away from the priest in hospital when he saw him coming.

It said "Roman Catholic" on his notes, so the padre always made a beeline for him.

"TBH I find this whole point-missing very frustrating. It is always the same: atheists don't want anyone to believe in God. It's just wrong."

I think you were missing the point of what I was saying, but seeing as you brought it up how do you explain the bus ads run recently
"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" (the "probably" only added due to the Advertising Standards intervention I understand)

Now I have absolutely no problem with freedom of speech or these ads running, but if that isn't atheists not wanting people to believe in God, I don't know what is!

I never said I agreed that the 'atheists are running Britain' statement was true, it's absurd, but it's equally absurd to say "Christians are running Britain" - As has been said elected MPs have a job to do and we (who elected them) hope they are moral enough to do it, wherever that moral framework comes from. If some happen to be Christian, it does not make it a Christian conspiracy either!

As I've said before I don't personally agree with an unelected second chamber in principle, but as things stand about 3% are there soley because of their faith, so not exactly in a dominant position there either. As far as I'm aware this is the only area in politics where someone get the "job" because of their faith?

I still don't see why MPs shouldn't be able to choose the first oath, if they have a faith & they want to ask their God to help them to do the best job possible, why not? Faith isn't just the hour you spend in church on a Sunday (or whatever), it is part of day-to-day life too in whatever job you do, there is no getting round that fact.

The sad thing was although I agree my example was "silliness" from the elected officials who requested it, it actually caused relgious and racial tension in the area as "people" decided "the Muslims" must have asked for the change. It turned out they knew nothing about it and in fact weren't the slightest bit offended by the word "Christmas"....

"what is sad that someone found a lazy tired piece churned out by some hack really interesting in the first place."

interregnum - is that really the best you can do to add to the debate, to stoop to the level of a personal insult?

It wasn't written by a "hack" anyway... {rolls eyes}

As I said earlier in the thread, the article struck a special resonance with me, as I've been on a similar journey recently from a period of no faith, to finding my faith again.

It's generated 3 pages of (in the main) interesting & well reasoned debate, so some people obviously found it thought provoking or worthy of comment, even if it was to say they disagreed with what had been said.

Personally I find it interesting to hear other people's points of view.

The atheist bus campaign started because the woman who ran it saw an advert for an evangelical Christian organisation with a link to a website that went along the lines of "if you're not one of us, you're going to burn in hell." She wanted to challenge that nastiness. The ASA (I don't think it was them actually, but the same idea) was quite right to add in the 'probably', weren't they? I know some of the more, er, outspoken members of the atheist publicity machine had their say, but tbh they do not speak for us all.

But I don't see how it is exhorting people to ditch faith and become atheists! It's a gentle message: this life is what's important. Whether you believe in a god or not, an afterlife or decomposition, surely that is a good message. (Just as 'Do unto others" is a good message, religious context or not.) I liked the bus campaign, I thought it added to the debate rather than diminished it.

"Now I have absolutely no problem with freedom of speech or these ads running, but if that isn't atheists not wanting people to believe in God, I don't know what is!"

SOME Atheists. Just like religion I guess not everyone belongs to the same 'church' so I think it would be wrong to tar all Atheists with the same brush. Though, that statement is correct isn't it? Belief in God or Gods is all to do with faith, not fact.

you are quite right, I should have said SWOME atheists

or SOME even...bloomin fingers...

heh heh!

As Callipygia says the atheist bus campaign was a response to a christian message and I don't think the 'probably' was to do with advertising standards at all. I think it was a light hearted reference to the beer advert "probably the best beer in the world' etc.

It was only after the atheist message was put up that some christians got angry at other people having a say and tried to have them stopped. A significant difference in approach there.

As for atheists not wanting people to believe in god. Well certainly I'd be pleased if people didn't, but my aim isn't to stop people. It isn't even to argue anyone here out of their faith.

I want two things. I want religion to have no special control whatsoever over our society. Just what influence any group may bring to bear by word and act.

I want anyone considering religion to see both sides of the debate. If for example no atheists posted in this threads it would look to a newcomer as though everyone was 100% sure god existed.

Oh and about this business of changing the name of christmas etc. I feel that's silly as the names are traditional and cause no offense to me. I have no objection to the muslim/hindu etc celebrations either.

The only thing that mildly annoys me is that about once a month someone will post in these threads "but if you are not christian you should not be allowed to celebrate christmas" etc.

Then I or someone explains to them how it wasn't a christian celebration originally and tell them how the holly, tree, mistletoe, presents, etc etc are all pagan and that Easter is a goddess of fertility etc.

We can keep the names, but let's get rid of the idea that they 'belong' to someone.

I agree, onagar, the number of Christians who seem to know very little about the religion they claim to espouse astounds me!

according to their own website the "probably" was to get round transport advertising regulations, I remembered hearing on the news it was to comply ewith some sort of advertising stds.

The standards being "not to offend religious people"!

I honestly didn't realise that, are religious folk more readily/easily offended than atheists? Why do they need special protection in this manner? Are they worried their god can't handle it?

Well that's just silly. Honestly, I thought the adverts were neither here nor there, but it wouldn't have offended me to have a flippin bus advert tell me there definitely is no God anymore than I'm offended by anyone saying it to my face.

I'm offended when someone calls me a flat-chested cow, and then only just.

I didn't say I agreed with the standards Oldlady, totally mad if you ask me...I didn't find the ads offensive in the slightest, and judging by the publicity the campaign had & that only a very small handful of people submitted a complaint about them to the ASA I'm guessing that most people went for the "live & let live" approach too

Well, there are plenty of adverts for things like the Alpha Course, and quite a few adverts, particularly on train stations, that say things like 'Come to Jesus'. Now I don;t find these offensive and support people's right to pay for and display such adverts. But if they can run adverts saying 'There is a god and it wants to bother you' then the BHA can certainly run afverts saying, there probably isn't a god.

(lol at 'there is a god and it wants to bother you'
Sorry
It is funny though)

Betsy:You must be very thin skinned if you though that was a personal insult. IF I wanted to insult you I would have done a better job than that.

The Daily Mail piece was nothing more than propaganda masquerading as opinion, the references to Jo Brand and Jonathan Ross
for no particular reason, and
"The Guardian's fanatical feminist-in-chief, Polly Toynbee, is one of the most dismissive of religion and Christianity in particular"
give the game away.

Can you not see the provocative language used
the wild allegations"The vast majority of media pundits and intelligentsia in Britain are unbelievers, many of them quite fervent in their hatred of religion itself"

I really do feel sorry for you if you thought
this article worthy of mention.

ps Hack- definition- "In journalism, the term is used to describe a writer who is deemed to operate as a "mercenary" or "pen for hire", expressing their client's opinions in pamphlets or newspaper" -seems to sum up the situation perfectly.

interregnum I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are entitled to yours.

PLEASE don't feel sorry for me, I have absolutely no wish or need for your sympathy.

why don't you try adding to the debate, and counter the arguments, for example by providing examples where Polly Toynbee has written an even-handed article about religion rather than just saying its all "propaganda"?

Thank you Justa, crossed posts.

Like you I never claimed to have agreed with everything that he wrote, but just put it up there for debate, and it has generated quite a bit :D

I've just finished reading AN Wilson in the NS.
I didn't get it.
But I don't get religious belief.
(I thought he was a bit undereducated eg on the linguistics stuff)
He is clearly a thoughtful person and his 'journey' is interesting, but he is writing for an audience other than me. Which is fine. I just don't find him compelling at all.

I have just re-read my post and I have arrogantly suggested that AN Wilson is undereducated.
I meant about the historical linguistics stuff...and a couple of other points were factually wrong or at least, debatable.
I think I am the only person who's read that particular article, though...I'll get my coat.

Justa - I didn't know he'd trained as a priest until you (I think it was you?) mentioned it earlier in the thread - I agree I'd like to understand more about his loss of faith too, I can't believe he just woke up one morning & decided he wanted to be "cool"

I know from my own experience it took months & months of turmoil before I decided to stop being a "practising" Christian, and I don't think I ever "lost" faith completely, I always knew God existed, I was just chosing to ignore Him and not think about Him!