Ok, so.. What is SOOOO wrong with abstinence and monogamy? (Fully expect to be flamed) but actually want to know....

[macmam]

Really want to have an actual discussion about why people think that the Pope is wrong with his abstinence/anti-condom stance as regards HIV/Aids.

Is it Dr Edward Green that we're talking about?

I think thats him.

Interesting item from New Scientist]].

Abstinence programmes in the US (Silver Ring Thing and so on) have not been effective. We cannot deny that (God-given?) sex drive.

Message withdrawn

Abstinense programmes are disastrous because abstinence-peddlers are not actually that interested in disease-prevention: they are sexually-dysfunctional fuckups with very unpleasant ideas. Horrible mindwarping rubbish like the Silver Ring movement, for instance, is obsessively hung up on vaginal penetration being 'sex' which means a lot of inexperienced boys persuading equally inexperienced girls that it's all right to do it up the arse because that's not really 'sex'. Not only is anal sex rather higher-risk for HIV transmission (not that all these poor ignorant Christian teens are likely to be HIV+) but people who are sexually ignorant are not going to be terribly good at doing it, either.
I'd say it again, if an individual doesn't like sex and doesn't want to do it, that's fine: eah to their own. If an individual is very keen on trying to stop other people having sex, and condeming other people's sexual choices, then there's something a bit wrong with that individual (he/she probably needs a good shag).

macmam, yes, of course it's in people's best interests, but since when do human beings act in sensible thoughtful ways all the time?

The whole of the Christian religion is founded on the understanding that people don't always make the sensible choice.

I think telling a married couple to abstain from sexual relations for the rest of their life is screwy in the extreme, tbh, and I can't think of anything more akin to sticking one's fingers in ones ears and going 'lalala'.

Abstinence is absolutely sensible, I truly believe encouraging it as part of being a responsible human being is a reasonable thing to do. But without education about the other options, it's untempered idealism that can seriously damage.

Because what you're saying is 'Unless you hold to my ideal of sex within marriage alone, I don't really care if you end up dead from infection.'

Besides, all this is assuming that everyone engaging in sexual activity with total autonomy - what of the woman with an HIV infected non-Christian husband who has no investment in the idea of not having sex with her out of love (and tbh, many Christian men would have a problem with that idea too). Under abstinence only programmes, she's stuffed, isn't she?

What about woman who relies on prostitution to make a living? Improving the economy to the point where she has other options takes time - what the hell does she do in the meantime?

What Kay said.

Abstinence and monogamy would be effective if everyone did it. But everyone isn't going to do it, are they? Even very sensible and devout people make errors of judgement, and Christianity is completely based on the fact that humanity is imperfect. Every week in the liturgy we admit to our fallibility and ask for forgiveness for it (I'm Anglican, not RC, but we do it too, as do most if not all Christian denominations).

So any policy which says "you won't get infected if you all follow this particular rule perfectly, even the non-Christians" is doomed to failure from the start.

Better to say "this would be a great way to live your life" but also if you struggle with it, or your partner may struggle with it, a condom will reduce the risk of serious harm to you and your as-yet-unborn children".

It doesn't seem that much to expect a church which follows a loving and forgiving God to take that line.

When you live in absolute poverty and the only way you can put a roof over your head and food into the mouths of your children is to engage in prostitution, as many women in African countries do then condoms would certainly help.

There is a bishop in South Africa speaking out against the Churches stance on condoms and HIV but I've forgotten his name.

The Pope has had a relatively easy life and should maybe consider the least of his flock before he, a man, who hasn't had sex or children passes out rules for others.

In this country I have taught children who think HIV has gone away and if it hasn't then it's curable or will be if they ever catch it.

For african women, marriage is a big risk factor for contracting HIV.

I remember being told by a family member, who had worked with African women, that in some areas of Africa anal sex was used as a form of contraception as condoms were not allowed. An activity which increases the risk of HIV transmission.

Because it's like saying we shouldn't use seatbelts; everyone should drive more safely. Nice idea, ain't gonna happen.

"So why not encourage "old fashioned abstinence" since it is 100% effective. "

Wouldn't the human race die out?