Question for the religiously inclined

[cestlavie]

Well, apologies if this has been done before (a million times) but it is Friday afternoon and I raise it having had a rather futile discussion with the local vicar.

Background to this, incidentally, is that DD2 is going to be christened (like DD1) at DW's request - DW being a non-practising CoE type person who feels that being christened is the "right" thing to do for a little one. Being an atheist, I really couldn't give two hoots but it is important to DW and she's happy to undertake the obligations associated with the christening. Anyway, having had the vicar round (again) and having had (another) futile discussion with him as to the nature of belief I'm curious whether anyone else out there is better able to articulate things than him. In short, my question is:

What is the evidence for God, or rather why do you believe in God?

My own position is, rather simply, that (a) I do not believe there is any empirical evidence for God more compelling than any other explanation (b) I do not believe that because millions of people believe in God that this is the case and (c) specifically regarding Christianity, I do not believe the Bible to be a complete and accurate reflection of the events it describes.

I'm genuinely curious therefore as to how people end up believing in God, or is it simply, as St Augustine said "a leap of faith"? I would also add that despite being an atheist, I'm certainly not of the Dawkins camp and have no wish to belittle people who do believe - indeed I'd love to believe myself in many ways, which is part of the reason I find the subject so fascinating.

It's been done a few times, but if you genuinely want to know then I'm happy to have a go

I believe in God, and consider myself to be a Christian, but I'd also agree with all your points (a,b,c), except that I'd split (a) into 2 sections and then only agree with one of them... (awkward cuss alert...)

(a)i. Proper empirical evidence which can be demonstrated, tested, is available and visible to everyone. I agree, there's none.

(a)ii. Personal experience, which is compelling to me as an individual, but which is only "hearsay" to anyone else. There's lots. But I don't think that anyone else should be expected to believe anything just on my say-so.

So, that's why I believe - I experience the existence of God in a way which is convincing to me. If I didn't feel that, then I wouldn't believe.

Thanks AMum. I rather suspected that it had been done before. If you've got links to any of the threads I'd be interested in seeing those.

When you say "personal experience", what do you mean? Certain events or happenings that could only attribute to a divine source maybe?

This one covered quite a lot of it. I think it often comes up in bits and pieces on threads, not having a whole thread to itself IYSWIM? Probably because half-way through another discussion, people start realising they are talking about different things, and try to unravel it.

In my case, I believe that I experience God as an actual presence - an "entity" that I can communicate with to some extent, usually in the sense of a feeling of "rightness" or "wrongness" about things, but sometimes more specific. That probably sounds like I mean my own "inner voice" or "conscience" but I believe it to be something quite separate from my own self.

I believe in God because I believe.

Not because I can furnish any actual proof- but then I haven't personally examined the proof for former life on Mars either, or the functioning of DNA, and probably wouldn't understand them if I did.

No, those scientific theories aren't really a good analogy, this is more on the lines of a personal experience.

I believe in the existence of God in the same way as I believe in the existence of love, or right and wrong. Sometimes it can be hard to prove the feeling that love is more important or stronger than looking out for number one- certainly easy to find seeming proof of the opposite if you look around you- but I still do believe it. And so do many of my non-Christian friends. It's just a feeling inside, but strong enough for people to base their life on.

I also believe there is a right and wrong that is not dependent on my own wants or convenience. And not even always on what I have been taught.

My feeling about God is similar, something I have felt rather than been taught, as I was brought up by non-Christians, yet started feeling my way towards God very early. It's feeling a presence.

There have been times when I have been furious with God, not wanted anything to do with him, left the church. But I could never quite convince myself of his non-existence, simply because I did believe.

I believe in God because I believe in God - ermm not very helpful is it. I think it that it is just simply that "faith" - you can't make yourself have faith (I don't think) you either have or you haven't

There is no evidence one way or another. You just believe. Belief is acceptance: it is simple, trusting. Yes, a 'leap of faith' is one way of exexpressing it. IME believers just believe; they don't conduct scientific analysis and then decide. Faith is quite illogical IMHO - that is, it is something to which one can attach strong views without necessarily having any basis of fact or proof. It is to do with feelings. Perhaps the same feelings as 'falling in love' - am process which I believe scientists also struggle to define.
I agree the thread which AMIS linked to covers a lot of the same ground.

I honestly doesn't make any sense to me at all that there isn't a God. I rather suspect I'm just not clever enough to sustain the conviction that existence just happened, for no reason at all. I have tried, but it just doesn't work for me.

But of course, there being a divine, ominpotent being doesn't necessitate one has to be a follower of a specific religion. For me, Christianity made the most sense of the world around me. I've been up against the realities of deeply ingrained sin in human nature all my life, and if God is love, then the response in Christian teaching to suffering - with the transcendent God becoming immanent in His creation - seems to me the most compassionate.

With regards to the bible, well, I was convinced by a lot of the textual stuff about it's veracity at least as a well-documented historical text if nothing else. But it did come down to being convinced by what the bible told me about human realities. I don't understand or like a lot of it, but in some senses that sort of underlines it as God's book for me - usually the bits I don't like are the ones which make me face up to my own icky stuff which I'd prefer to keep hidden.

I also just believe. Sorry.

And I agree with your points a, b and c.

I suspect these conversations will always be futile. If you are looking for empirical evidence you won't be given any. You will make your logical case, and people will still just believe.

It must be very frustrating

are you stressing the whole God concept a bit too much?
I mean, is it that you dont believe because you are simply expecting too much (a man with a white beard sitting on a cloud??)

That's a good point, actually. I often find myself listening to various people's descriptions of the God they don't believe in and thinking 'yeah, I wouldn't believe in that either, sounds rubbish'.

A bit like KayHarker - I believe there is a Higher Being because I can't deal with the idea that there isn't one.
I was brought up as a Christian and never thought to query the basic existence of God - but as I got older, I queried stuff in the Bible, stuff that was part of specific religions and stuff that was part of specific sects within religions. This led me away from Christianity, although not away from the concept of a God.

I don't subscribe to any formal organised religion because I believe they are man-made constructs. I believe Jesus existed, I believe the stories in the New Testament, I even believe the resurrection. What I can't handle is the general idea that if you DON'T believe that, then you won't get into heaven, however "good" you have been. That seemed ridiculous. Equally, that you could be really bad all your life but repent at the end and get into heaven.

I actually don't believe in Christian Heaven or Hell either. I believe in recycling of souls, like every other thing in this world. Why would souls be any different? I quite like the bit at the beginning of Ben Okri's The Famished Road where he talks about he Spirit Garden - that fits my concept better.

But going back to my first point - I have to believe there is something more than what we have here - be it Fate, the Divine Plan, call it what you like - because the idea that we are born from nothing and die and become nothing is unacceptable to me.

I also, despite being a scientist, don't believe in Cartesian rules of science either. That is arrogance of the worst kind - "if I can't see/feel/understand it then it doesn't exist". If I can't see/feel/understand it, then I don't know how to look yet - that is my philosophy, and I will keep looking and learning until I either learn how to understand/see/feel whatever, or until I die (and then start again next time round!)

I believe because I've seen the evidence in my own life and in those around me.

I can't see the wind - but I can see its effect; ergo I believe wind makes leaves move even though I don't see "wind" itself - so saying I believe X happened because God/Jesus/Spirit made it happen is the same kind of thing.

I don't believe the bible is 100% literal. We all know Jesus taught in parables for a start - so that proves it's not wholly literal. Revelation is a book about signs and visions - not literal seeings, but spiritual dreams. Song of Songs is a book of poetry about God - not literal animals and sex......

So yes, it is just a matter of faith. I have faith that God made X happen. I have faith that the wind makes the leaves move - no physical (read visual) proof for either of them, which is where the faith steps in

Good post Lewis

I have a PhD in physics and have worked in areas of computational/theoretical physics, astronomy, and am now involved in medical research. I am also a Christian.
I know there is no evidence for God, how could there be? But my personal experience tells me that there is a God. The experiences are difficult to describe, I am aware they would sound odd to a non-believer, but they are real to me?they consist of unexpectedly answered prayers, calls to act on something that makes no sense at the time, but perfect sense in retrospect, when other things have happened, and a sense of spirituality. To me, God is the essence of love. Where there is no God, is evil, just as where there is no light there is darkness. Faith is something I have chosen to have.

From a Christian perspective, I am aware that the Gospels were written some considerable time after the events they describe, and am happy to accept that the story will have changed with retelling over the years. Mistakes and misconceptions will have crept in. An analogy would be with stories passed down by word of mouth in my own family. They are often exaggerated too. But when I went into the family history and traced the records I found that although the stories were nowhere near 100% correct, the essence of the stories were correct, and I believe the same to be true of the Gospels. Although they were written maybe two or three generations later, the essence of the stories will be true, even if the details are not.

cestlavie - I would be interested to know what you do believe in, if anything. My DH is a born-again atheist, having been brought up a Catholic (not an uncommon position) and believes firmly that there is nothing after we die, that it is the end. Is that your position too?
(he agreed to us getting DS christened too, to appease me, but not as a Catholic because I am not Catholic)

Whatever you feel about God, you do not have to have your children christned, the sprinkling of babies is not biblical, it is a man made doctrine, it also makes no differnce to the soul of the child being sprinkled. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of WORKS (ie rituals). Baptisam is biblically by full immersion on declaration of faith in the atonement of the sacrifice and repentance for sins. These decsions are a personal choice and usually any faith is delcared when a child has a reasonalbe understanding of the issues.

Joining a church, being christend or confirmation does not make you a child of God anymore than being born in a garage makes you a car.

Silver-birch - Romans chapter 2 tells us that man is without excuse because the creation speaks of God.

I think if you're hoping that someone has evidence which proves a,b,or c wrong, or which proves that they are somehow irrelevant because superceded by some other evidence, then you're always going to be disappointed by what believers can tell you, and there's a risk that you're always going to find the discussion futile.

Because I don't think anyone is in a position to provide that - we all believe for slightly different reasons (or at least have slightly different ways of expressing the reason) - but they are all "because we believe that there is something more", however we experience that, or explain it to ourselves.

If you don't experience that, or believe it to be true, then anything we say is going to sound meaningless and unconvincing.

If your DW wants the children to be baptised as an expression of her beliefs, and you are not fundamentally opposed to it, then I think you may just have to shrug and accept that this is an area where you're not going to really understand each others viewpoints, and embrace it as part of the "rich tapestry of life".

Thanks everyone for your very interesting views. Just in response to a couple of posts.

AMum: I'm perfectly happy for DW to have the children christened. On balance, I'd rather not, but it's important to her so it's fine with me.

ThumbLoveWitch: I was raised in a broadly CoE sort of way (school assemblies, church once a month) but never really believed in it. Now I firmly believe that there is nothing after we die but that we should be incredibly grateful for having been given the opportunity to live.

You very rightly say "That is arrogance of the worst kind - if I can't see/ feel/ understand it then it doesn't exist. If I can't see/ feel/ understand it, then I don't know how to look yet." Absolutely, but there if a difference between having an open mind towards something and accepting it.

It does sound like a leap of faith which is rather why I asked the question (and of the vicar) as to how that is made. I know there is no one answer but I was curious as to how people made that leap. Thanks for all the responses.

Cestlavie... on leaping. I'd say it's a bit like the moment when you realise you're in love. That's a leap of faith too. How can you know it's real? What's the evidence? Probably there isn't any that isn't utterly shaky. It can take weeks or months or just a second. Everyone's story will be different. But if you go around thinking that romantic love is all rubbish, it's singularly unlikely to happen to you.

I'd say I believe in a Higher Power. I think it is difficult to get a handle on what exactly that means though.

There is an old spiritual teaching story - The Elephant in the Dark, where a group of wise men are in a dark room with an elephant, trying work out the nature of the elephant. One man can feel his trunk and says it is a long thin creature with an amazing sense of smell. One can feel only the tusks and says it is a ferocious beast. Another feels its huge leathery flank and says it is as big as a house. Another feels its legs and says there are many of them. Another is in the corner where the elephant is just out of reach, and he snorts derisively and calls the others fools because there is nothing there.

Does God exist? Well, the events of the last forthnight are a clue for me. DH's been in hospital, critically ill after a brain bleed. In nearly all cases, there's lasting damage.

I'm ASD (autistic spectrum) and this was the scariest time of my entire life. I prayed. I asked for prayer on here, and through my church, and through other prayer chains and friends and anyone else who wouldn't mind praying.

When I got to the hospital, there had just been a storm, and above the hospital wing was the most beautiful rainbow. I just knew that it was a sign.

He's made the most astonishing recovery. The doctors can't believe it. The odds were so very small.

It doesn't happen like that every time. Sometimes the answer is 'no', but that's the reality of my faith, the reason that I know God exists. I owe God a very large favour, and one I won't hesitate to repay.

Comparisons with the wind are misleading. You cannot see the wind but you can see its effects. OK. I get this. However, it can be empirically demonstrated in other ways - under rigorous, scientific, peer-reviewed conditions if it is demanded - that there is such a thing as "wind". You cannot do this with god(s).

None of the "just believe" arguments put a decent case for answering the question, "yes, but why this god and not another?"

A god is like a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy - "this happened therefore this happened", i.e. the fallacy that correlation means causation. Only it's sort of the other way round, because it's saying "this happened (the universe is here) therefore this happened before (a god was/is here)." Someone whose Latin is better than mine will tell me what the expression should be in that case...

amber, I'm so sorry to hear of your traumatic time. And pleased to hear of your DH's good health now. But if you seriously want to demonstrate a causal link between prayer and medical recovery, you'll need more than one piece of anecdotal evidence. Surely a nice God would not have let this happen in the first place? And what about all the people who are prayed for who sadly do die?

Unquiet Dad, it's not the first time I've experienced it. And though I've not got a brain very well designed for religion (to say the least!), I do sometimes 'sense' God's presence in a way that I simply cannot describe.

We're here (say) 75 years on this planet. It's a real planet. Very awful things happen. Goodness me, I've experienced any number of awful things which I've detailed in the past on mumsnet but don't have the strength to list again here.

Without God, I'd have gone through those things alone. With God, I've had someone to lean on and get me through them. Why should bad things happen? We don't fully know, but we can know that 75 years here plus help from God, then trillions of years of heaven, seems a reasonable deal.

Or we can take all the bad things that happen, then die.

I know which I'd prefer (assuming I get into heaven, and can cope with it).