Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Easter: "central act of history" ??

50 replies

CanadianJohn2 · 17/02/2026 19:10

I was reading about Easter, and read this "the great central act of history, the redemption of the human race by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

I hadn't thought of Easter - or history - in that way. Certainly, for Europe, "everything" changed. But for the world? I'm thinking of the European discovery of the Americas in the 15th and 16th centuries, or maybe the end of the Islamic Golden age in (about) the 12th century. I don't know enough about the far east to have an opinion.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

OP posts:
Parker231 · 06/04/2026 09:49

EmpressaurusKitty · 06/04/2026 08:13

That’s very similar to the argument on another thread that the Taliban aren’t practising proper Islam.

There’s a bloke who likes to stand outside the evangelical church in my local high street at weekends, gloating through his megaphone that everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus is going to hell. He comes across as a vindictive bastard.

I don’t think I’d be able to stop myself from going up to the idiot with the megaphone and start challenging his untruths.

EmpressaurusKitty · 06/04/2026 11:22

Parker231 · 06/04/2026 09:49

I don’t think I’d be able to stop myself from going up to the idiot with the megaphone and start challenging his untruths.

Shortly after my mum died I walked past, he was in full flow & there were also people from the church handing out leaflets with big grins on their faces.

I had to dive into the nearby shopping centre because if one of them had come up to me I would absolutely have told them what I thought of them & their god. Loudly & in detail.

Now I usually find it easier to avoid the area at his times.

speakout · 06/04/2026 11:29

Parker231 · 06/04/2026 08:04

Jesus was a regular guy, got in with the wrong crowd. Got caught and was punished by hanging. He died - end of the story. A resurrection didn’t happen - it’s not possible. Check with any doctor.

I don't disagree. There is no compelling evidence to suggest that jesus - even as a regular guy- even existed. More likely some cobbled together stories which emanated from unstable political times.

MertonDensher · 06/04/2026 11:39

speakout · 06/04/2026 11:29

I don't disagree. There is no compelling evidence to suggest that jesus - even as a regular guy- even existed. More likely some cobbled together stories which emanated from unstable political times.

I think most (though not all) historians now accept there was a historical Jesus, who preached for a few years in Galilee, had a following and was executed by the Romans. Everything other than that is down to the evangelising and mythologising of his early followers, and the particular circumstances that fostered the spread of Christianity.

Contemporary evangelical Christians seem largely unaware that there were significant numbers of self-proclaimed ‘messiahs’ within Second Temple Judaism. Jesus was far from unique. He just happened to be the one whose postmortem fandom was particularly successful.

Parker231 · 06/04/2026 16:46

MertonDensher · 06/04/2026 11:39

I think most (though not all) historians now accept there was a historical Jesus, who preached for a few years in Galilee, had a following and was executed by the Romans. Everything other than that is down to the evangelising and mythologising of his early followers, and the particular circumstances that fostered the spread of Christianity.

Contemporary evangelical Christians seem largely unaware that there were significant numbers of self-proclaimed ‘messiahs’ within Second Temple Judaism. Jesus was far from unique. He just happened to be the one whose postmortem fandom was particularly successful.

I think that there was a Jesus - son of Mary and Joseph - none of that virgin birth nonsense - I judge people who don’t understand or use science that it is impossible. But the rest is just a myth or legend.

MaybeNotBob · 06/04/2026 17:51

Given that it seem unlikely that Jesus as described ever existed, the story itself cannot be true, so I don't think it can be considered the central act of history.

Convincing people that the story is true may be a very significant act though. Just as convincing people to vote for Trump has had quite a notable impact...

Dilbertian · 06/04/2026 19:23

MertonDensher · 06/04/2026 11:39

I think most (though not all) historians now accept there was a historical Jesus, who preached for a few years in Galilee, had a following and was executed by the Romans. Everything other than that is down to the evangelising and mythologising of his early followers, and the particular circumstances that fostered the spread of Christianity.

Contemporary evangelical Christians seem largely unaware that there were significant numbers of self-proclaimed ‘messiahs’ within Second Temple Judaism. Jesus was far from unique. He just happened to be the one whose postmortem fandom was particularly successful.

Come to think of it, maybe the Easter story was not the central act of history, the act that changed the world. Maybe Hadrian was responsible for that, 100 years later. Had he not destroyed Israel and exiled or taken most of its population until slavery, ‘Christianity’ might never have grown beyond a quirky offshoot of Judaism. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t most of the Christian Bible written after the Roman exile? Weren’t only one Gospel and Paul’s letters written before it?

So Hadrian takes away the Jews: Judaeans, Essenes, Samaritans, Nazarenes, the whole lot willy-nilly and enslaves them. Pretty grim situation. How do you sacrifice when there’s no Temple? How do you study Torah when study is banned? How do you avoid eating pork when it’s everywhere and you don’t get any choice? And your Nazarene compatriots are saying, “Hey, it’s OK, our Messiah’s coming back and he says you don’t need to do these things.” You know that the end of times, just before the Messiah comes, will be a time of terrible suffering - and you’re a slave or a displaced person and it feels like the end of times right now. And Judaism says that this is the only world you’ve got, so make the best of it, and you know you’re either dying or going to die, but your Nazarene compatriots are saying that if you believe in their Messiah you’ll go to this wonderful heaven with no suffering - when tomorrow comes.

Seems to me that Hadrian inadvertently ran a strong recruitment drive for Christianity. And that was the act that changed world history.

Justmerach · 07/04/2026 15:56

I watched on Easter Friday King of Kings on BBC2, it is still on iplayer. I found it quite interesting. I have a faith since childhood and believe that Jesus is the Son of God who was rescurrected and his ancension.

You may want to watch the movie some of you and see what you think.

About the discussion about the preachers, there are different types today. Many do not just preach strongly on hell. The Anglican church is quite a bit softer in style I think. I am a non denominational but attend an Anglican church today. If people are beavered then some church's do offer Beaverment cafe's for free and you may find this in other places as well. They are skilled and DBS checked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00783nk/king-of-kings

Parker231 · 07/04/2026 21:01

Dilbertian · 06/04/2026 19:23

Come to think of it, maybe the Easter story was not the central act of history, the act that changed the world. Maybe Hadrian was responsible for that, 100 years later. Had he not destroyed Israel and exiled or taken most of its population until slavery, ‘Christianity’ might never have grown beyond a quirky offshoot of Judaism. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t most of the Christian Bible written after the Roman exile? Weren’t only one Gospel and Paul’s letters written before it?

So Hadrian takes away the Jews: Judaeans, Essenes, Samaritans, Nazarenes, the whole lot willy-nilly and enslaves them. Pretty grim situation. How do you sacrifice when there’s no Temple? How do you study Torah when study is banned? How do you avoid eating pork when it’s everywhere and you don’t get any choice? And your Nazarene compatriots are saying, “Hey, it’s OK, our Messiah’s coming back and he says you don’t need to do these things.” You know that the end of times, just before the Messiah comes, will be a time of terrible suffering - and you’re a slave or a displaced person and it feels like the end of times right now. And Judaism says that this is the only world you’ve got, so make the best of it, and you know you’re either dying or going to die, but your Nazarene compatriots are saying that if you believe in their Messiah you’ll go to this wonderful heaven with no suffering - when tomorrow comes.

Seems to me that Hadrian inadvertently ran a strong recruitment drive for Christianity. And that was the act that changed world history.

When people look back at this week, they won’t remember Easter Sunday but will mark it as the week Trump threatened to blow up Iran. There are much more significant events in history than anything religious.

Dilbertian · 07/04/2026 21:34

Even if we are all going to hell in a handcart, we can't enjoy a philosphical discussion along the way?

Anyway, why is Trump threatening to blow up Iran? It all boils down to religion in the end (and oil). The impending WW3 or world economical catastrophe didn't spring fully grown out of Trump or Netanyahu's heads. They are the result of influences over millenia. Jesus, Paul, Bar Kohba, Hadrian, Mohammed, the European Empires, the Industrial Revolution, Hitler, take your pick.

HowardTJMoon · 08/04/2026 13:30

JanFebAndOnwards · 06/04/2026 00:25

Jesus wasn’t any individual, but God come down to earth.

Ok. How does the torture/death/resurrection of a god in human form "solve" the moral failings of humans?

NarnianQueen · 09/04/2026 07:39

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand, surely? People believed Jesus was the son of God and the resulting religion shaped the world as we know it. It’s the year of our Lord 2026 after all 😂 Without Christianity we’d still be sacrificing children to get a good harvest. It’s nonsensical to suggest that the BELIEF in Jesus’ resurrection isn’t the single most influential event in history.

MertonDensher · 09/04/2026 09:02

NarnianQueen · 09/04/2026 07:39

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand, surely? People believed Jesus was the son of God and the resulting religion shaped the world as we know it. It’s the year of our Lord 2026 after all 😂 Without Christianity we’d still be sacrificing children to get a good harvest. It’s nonsensical to suggest that the BELIEF in Jesus’ resurrection isn’t the single most influential event in history.

You sound very confused. Judaism, to give only one instance, considerably predates Christianity. No Jewish people were sacrificing their offspring to the sun god for a good harvest.

VictoriaAshe · 02/05/2026 11:56

MertonDensher · 09/04/2026 09:02

You sound very confused. Judaism, to give only one instance, considerably predates Christianity. No Jewish people were sacrificing their offspring to the sun god for a good harvest.

Perhaps more importantly the Greeks and Romans from whom the Western traditions of law and ethics actually descend also weren’t doing this.

It’s very hard to point to anything important in our culture and institutions today that that’s uniquely Christian. Indeed organised Christianity historically opposed the rise of scientific realism, democracy and the rule of law, which rather undermines any pretence to its historical significance.

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 12:03

Organised Christianity did not historically oppose the rise of scientific realism, or the rule of law.

Parker231 · 02/05/2026 12:55

NarnianQueen · 09/04/2026 07:39

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand, surely? People believed Jesus was the son of God and the resulting religion shaped the world as we know it. It’s the year of our Lord 2026 after all 😂 Without Christianity we’d still be sacrificing children to get a good harvest. It’s nonsensical to suggest that the BELIEF in Jesus’ resurrection isn’t the single most influential event in history.

All depends on whether you believe Jesus was the son of god or that the resurrection happened? I don’t.

VictoriaAshe · 02/05/2026 13:25

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 12:03

Organised Christianity did not historically oppose the rise of scientific realism, or the rule of law.

Just off the top of my head the Catholic Church quite literally suppressed the works of Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, Thomas Hobbes and Blaise Pascal. Need I go on?

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 13:41

Yes you do. You could start by looking at the first millennium and a half of Christianity. Not under the heading of individual writers, but under the general headings of 'scientific realism' whatever you mean by that - modern era science that wasn't invented until long into the Christian centuries?

The rule of law. Canon law? Civil law? Roman law? Brehon law?

And democracy - the Greek concept? The system the West has used in politics for a century-ish? How has Christianity opposed that?

Dilbertian · 02/05/2026 14:00

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 12:03

Organised Christianity did not historically oppose the rise of scientific realism, or the rule of law.

It most certainly did!

VictoriaAshe · 02/05/2026 14:02

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 13:41

Yes you do. You could start by looking at the first millennium and a half of Christianity. Not under the heading of individual writers, but under the general headings of 'scientific realism' whatever you mean by that - modern era science that wasn't invented until long into the Christian centuries?

The rule of law. Canon law? Civil law? Roman law? Brehon law?

And democracy - the Greek concept? The system the West has used in politics for a century-ish? How has Christianity opposed that?

The scientific method as we would recognise it today dates from classical Greece. Our civil law is derived from pre-Christian Rome and common law from the pro-Christian Anglo-Saxons. The Catholic church has bitterly opposed democracy and supported absolute monarch and reactionaries since the Enlightenment. These are all uncontroversial facts of history in which you could easily educate yourself.

What worthwhile aspects of the present day can you attribute to Christianity? It’s a simple question you seem curiously unwilling to answer.

TiredShadows · 02/05/2026 14:38

The belief in it, along with - as pp said - those who came after building up a power behind that believe has had a significant impact. Whether it's 'central' is subjective and unneeded. We can make a lot of things 'central' if we treat history like a story plot.

Judaism, we have Messanic Jews...but many still do not believe that Jesus will redeem them or yet, it seems many think it will be David who will redeem them. Scripture doesn't indicate this.

I've never heard any Jewish claim that the Messiah will be David. The qualifier is that a man from the line of David through Solomon. That is indicated in Jewish texts, that's why the Christian texts have two different genealogies of Jesus trying to tie him into that line, one in Matthew, One in Luke.

The other qualifiers are following the Torah, compelling others people to walk in the ways of the Torah through his actions, Fight the wars of God and win, restore of Temple in Jerusalem and gather in the Diaspora. There have been several potentials throughout history (in some branches of Judaism, it is seen that there are multiple potential messiahs in every generation), but if they die before completing it, they're disqualified, some groups phrasing it as failed such as discussions around Bar Kochba, others a bit harsher and saying they never were to start with.

There have been multiple 'potentials' who have died and then had people claiming they will come back, Menachem Mendel Schneerson being the most recent.

The entire idea of a Messiah is an exilic concept, it shows up in no texts prior to that, just like the concept of monotheism rather than henotheism or the Divine Council model common in the region at the time starts showing up in texts written or edited during or after King Josiah who, like Egypt's Pharaoh Akhenaten, made sweeping brutal reforms for his ideology.

Without Christianity we’d still be sacrificing children to get a good harvest.

With how much child labour is still involved in agriculture, I wouldn't say we've entirely moved past that.

Also, there are still areas of Christendom who argue that natural catastrophes are because of an unpleased deity, and argue murdering people as a means of solving the issue, some successfully.

And democracy - the Greek concept? The system the West has used in politics for a century-ish? How has Christianity opposed that?

Christianity, like all faiths, is very internally diverse, even more so in the early churches before Constantine got involved and things moved into what was orthodoxy and what was heretical, making it easier to control. From the limited records we have, the concept of Jesus as not divine was a norm in many early churches, that's only really come back into any form of accepted doctrine in any Christian branch within the last half century or so

Many Christians supported the Divine Rule of Kings and were against moves away from that, just like there were Christians who were against the monarchy.

The American evangelical churches pre-WW2 were anti-politics, they didn't get involved, it was too worldly. Those in power in those churches got invested into it in the decades after, and now...welll... yes, they've been very anti-science and anti-law when it suits them. There are still American and other Christians who support science and the law to an extent - I mean, it's not uncommon in some Christian spaces to see the phrase 'Jesus flipped tables for less than this' to discuss corruption in governments and other institutions, including church institution.

Christianity in itself isn't for or against anything and like all faiths changes over time and place. Those in power in Christianity, like any institution, it's largely been what benefits them and have used their influences to have their followers be for or against anything. The Bible, being a diverse document built over a century and with translation choices, it's not difficult for those in power to have the text be for or against most things.

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 14:41

'Our' civil law? Do you mean English law? Again, 'common law' - that is afaik another English thing.

mind you, talking about 'the Enlightenment' suggests a position.

There was lots of science, mathematics and engineering in Europe, Asia and North Africa before 1500, all developed in a Christian world (including the stuff adopted by Islam in the old Roman territories after the 6th century.

Democracy barely existed until the last century.

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 14:43

From the limited records we have, the concept of Jesus as not divine was a norm in many early churches, that's only really come back into any form of accepted doctrine in any Christian branch within the last half century or so

Oh come on. Read Paul.

VictoriaAshe · 02/05/2026 15:12

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 14:41

'Our' civil law? Do you mean English law? Again, 'common law' - that is afaik another English thing.

mind you, talking about 'the Enlightenment' suggests a position.

There was lots of science, mathematics and engineering in Europe, Asia and North Africa before 1500, all developed in a Christian world (including the stuff adopted by Islam in the old Roman territories after the 6th century.

Democracy barely existed until the last century.

English (and indeed European) civil law derives from the Corpus Iuris Civilis, a compilation of Roman laws dating back to the Republic. Common law derives, as I said, from the customs of the pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons.

’Developed in a Christian world’ doesn’t mean ‘the result of Christianity’. There isn’t such a thing as Christian maths any more than there’s such a thing as Hellenic polytheist geometry.

Democracy is literally five or six centuries older than Christianity. Mass democracy is indeed a product of the Age of Enlightenment. No one but you seems to be confused about this.

DeanElderberry · 02/05/2026 15:26

Irish Brehon law did not derive from Roman law. The Anglo Saxons did not contribute to the development of law in Ireland. Or anywhere else in Europe.

'democracy' the Greek concept and 'democracy' the modern political system are very different things.

The statement upthread that 'organised Christianity historically opposed the rise of scientific realism, democracy and the rule of law,' is poppycock.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page