The Latin Mass

[Butchyrestingface]

Has anyone been/goes?

I've been lapsed since my early teens and now, in my late 40s, have of late started to experience certain ... stirrings (could be peri-menopause). Only really attend for weddings, funerals, baptisms and occasionally Christmas these days.

Not a huge fan of the traditional Catholic mass these days after all the prayer updates and am really curious to try out TLM. My parents were old enough to remember pre Vatican II days and raved about how much they loved TLM (couldn't speak a word of Latin between them).

There is a weekly Latin mass in my city and I'm keen to go. What I want to know is, do female worshippers generally wear the mantilla? I don't want to be the only bare-headed woman there if so.

Not at the one close to my mums house. Dress code seems to be smart casual.

I’m with you on the change of wording. … it’s so clumsy.
I have popped my head into a Latin mass and did see some mantillas. Not sure it was for me.
How about a sung English mass where the Creed and I confess are in Latin?

Attending mass in a language you don’t understand makes zero sense. You could be agreeing to all sorts. Unless you understand what is being said it’s simply performative and attention seeking.

I wouldn't be agreeing to anything. I would be attending a service, not signing up to join the dark side.

Having lived abroad as a child, my mother and I used to attend mass in that country weekly, where we had at best a ropey understanding of the language. I don't think any reasonable person would have called my mum 'attention seeking' - she was simply a really devout Catholic.

If, however, you think Latin mass unless you're fluent in Latin is 'performative' and 'attention seeking', you're under no obligation to go.

This particular church (only one in the city who does it) runs a low mass and a sung mass. I'm not aware of any other churches around here who do what you suggest.

I'm thinking of going to the sung mass. Used to go to the song-less masses every morning before school as a child and didn't enjoy it.

Gosh every morning!! It’s very much in your bones then!

Odd comment by @BreakingBroken…I’m not sure how attending mass in any language could be thought of as “performative”. And of course Catholics can go to church in any country and automatically know which part of the mass they are “at”.

I think it’s trendy right now in a trump ultra conservative way.
Yes being familiar with the mass format means you can guess the words but you can’t precisely focus on what is said since you don’t know the language.
i feel strongly it’s the wrong path to understanding the moment.

But on the flip side, not understanding every word can make for a more spiritual/mystical experience

It’s easy enough to find a translation and familiarise …

I so agree with this. one knows what stage the service is at and it gives you the 'space' to meditate about it in your own personal way.

I went to one once, and no I wouldn't go again, as I can't participate in it, as I don't speak or sing Latin. It was fine as a one off, same as on holiday, but it's not something I'd want to do regularly.

IME most women wear mantilla to TLM

You could wear a normal silk scarf as a headscarf if you don't have one :)

Ive been to Latin Mass and enjoyed it. You know what you are ' agreeing to' because it's the same thing you say in English. Where I went the sermon was in English and they had a side by side in English and Latin in the mass book . I found it very meditative. Some peolle wrote the Mantilla but I didn't. I didnt feel left out.

I'm not catholic but I don't agree with this. There's different things to be got out of a mass in latin. Listening to Mozart's or Verdi's requiem in Latin is deeply moving. In a high CofE church the choir may regularly sing parts of the service in latin although the prayers between will be in english. It's ridiculous to say "you coukd be agreeing to all sorts" because the point of the mass being in Latin is that the words of the latin mass have not and do not change since the wording became established in the earliest years of Christianity becoming a formalised religion, and there is something very powerful and connecting about taking part in a ritual that is using the same words today as were used 1000 or 1500 years ago and have been said or sung daily all over the world since then. If you aren't processing the language it becomes a more meditative and contemplative experience, and also a more international one - at a latin mss, worshipers from England, from Poland, from Venezuela and from the Philippines can worship together. If someone is familiar enough with the English mass, they don't need to speak latin to be able to figure out that "Laudamus te, benedicimus te, adoramus te, glorificamus te, gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam" matches up to the well-known (to churchgoers) english words "We praise you, we bless you,
we adore you, we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory" but having it in the latin syllables enables you to switch of the analytics and busy worldliness of the brain and dwell in that moment of worship more completely.

I found that the modern latin mass felt similar to being being on holidays. I attended a Tridentine mass in an SSPX church and that was extraordinary: very reverent, and quite humbling - the priest approaches the altar, to speak with God, while the ordinary congregants are huddled behind him, not quite following the words. It’s hard not to feel small and a bit insignificant, and a lot more awe - it was an insight into pre Vatican dynamics.

There was absolutely no chitchat, only praying. I wore an ordinary neck scarf so I could pull it up and cover my head, if it felt needed. It was needed. And the dress code was well covered. At the modern Latin mass there was more of a mix- some mantillas but many uncovered heads too.

It was an interesting experience but more than a touch culty which made me wary. It’s also changed my feelings towards the new mass as it feels like the priest is now required to put on a performance and entertain the parishioners and there’s very little sense of being in the divine presence when their back is to the tabernacle and people are having a chat and a gossip like kids in a classroom before the teacher comes in.

I’m very much lapsed now, and only go for funerals, christenings, weddings and enjoy a good sing a long. I think the experience of the Tridentine form actually hastened the end for me.

Likewise when I was a child there would often be visiting Polish or Hungarian priests. Even those with poor English could say Mass.

I went to a "modern" Mass a few years ago, I didn't recognise it at all. It wasn't comforting in the way the Latin Mass of my childhood was. In times of stress I have sometimes yearned for a rosary to help clear my busy brain.

As for the Trump comment, I'm not sure if that makes any sense? Everyone has a conscience of their own and can surely act and vote accordingly.

It'll likely vary by place, the previous suggestion of having a scarf you can use as a headcovering would work well - it's what my maternal grandmother did when she was traveling.

As for the Trump comment, I'm not sure if that makes any sense? Everyone has a conscience of their own and can surely act and vote accordingly.

It also doesn't make sense because Trump Ultra Conservatism is built on a type of Evangelical Christian Nationalism that has a very strong anti-Catholic bend, treating it akin to a Satanic corruption. There may some exceptions in their ranks, usually are in any group, but they largely despise the Latin Mass much like some of the louder components have argued against and called it worthless elitism to discuss the Biblical texts or the writings of the leaders of early churches in anything other than English (some of them have openly said that the original languages don't matter because their preferred English translation is 'inspired').

The tend towards the Latin Mass is more to do with different feelings of changes within the Catholic Church that have happened over decades, well before Trump came to power.

It's less that for me than that the organisations who perform the pre-Vatican II mass, and those who attend it tend to be repellently conservative with some appallingly reactionary views.

I live close to a church used exclusively by the Society of Pius X, an organisation founded by Marcel Lefebvre in the 1970s, which has longtime links to supporting far-right positions, the Vichy government in France, Le Pen's Front National, Civitas, to anti-semitism and Holocaust denial, against women in positions of authority, perpetrating and covering up clerical sex abuse etc.

The people attending these Latin masses are fine with this. It's not purely a matter of nostalgia for a pre-Vatican II sense of mystery or reverence, or a liking for the aesthetics.

You couldn’t be more wrong! I worked overseas for many years and attending mass in a different language is an amazing experience! The order of the mass doesn’t change, so it’s a really good way to learn a language because it’s easy enough to understand a rough translation, the more you attend the more you ‘key’ into the language that is being spoken, and the more you learn.
As for sung Gregorian chant, even if you are a non-believer, it’s beautiful to hear.
as an aside what do you mean agreeing to all sorts? I can assure you I don’t agree to anything! I’m pretty sure God doesn’t have a little black book which the Omnipotent one reads and goes ‘ah, now see here Mazed you agreed to say 10 Hail Mary’s each night before bed as penance, you’re not doing it, so breaking our agreement, off you go and see my opposite number’!

Surey the best thing about the Latin mass was that every Catholic could join in the service anywhere in the world?

Pretty sure SSPX aren't in communion with Rome...

I believe wearing one is frowned on by the Vatican not because there is anything wrong with that per se ( and it does look pretty!) but because it suggests affiliation with certain fundamentalist groups. But this is just going from memory and I may be wrong - best research it.

Old prayer books had the English and Latin side by side. The Latin language is beautiful, rhythmical, succinct and conveys the feeling of another world, even without the listener fully understanding word for word, imo.

Who can doubt the value historically of making sure everyone everyone understands the Mass in their own language? On the other hand Latin made the church universal as it was the same wherever someone came from - succour for travellers and immigrants every where.

Why not get in touch with your Diocese and ask if there is an approved Latin Mass, ( “Mass in Extraordinary Form”) in your area.

Not been to one for ages. I think I agree with Pope Francis that it’s caused too much division. The Latin mass society loved my bishop friend as they had him down as one of their biggest supporters. Even I was surprised to discover he doesn’t support it at all. And will only say it himself, or allow it in his diocese where there is ‘pastoral need’