Atheists and proof cont….

[Kdtym10]

A carry on from the previous thread

That's a matter of belief.

And my and others who profess to Islamic teachings are not doing it out of blind faith, but with intellect, proofs and evidence.

One cannot be a Muslim without having done rigorous research and then coming to be belief that God does exists.

It is not for me or anyone else to convince someone else who chooses to not believe but rather it's the very fundamental question that bugs everyone.

Why are we here?

There must be a purpose.

The Qur'an talks to me at all levels, it satisfies my intellectual, logical and common sense. It asks questions and provides answers, removes all doubts, clarifies confusing thoughts to make you believe that God exists and there is a purpose for my existence.

Peace.

I have answered this exact question before (either earlier today or last night)

i think these things absolutely are truths

That their position in the present is the place they should be in the present

I think they are apart of a persons imagination.

For me, we are all individuals with individual purposes/wills we all experience the universe in different ways. Therefore it follows nothing about divinity has to be universal in its application to individuals, However divinity contains everything so in a sense is universal but we would all experience it in different ways.

Well my experience of divinity is really beyond words, the closest I can get to is unity and harmony with everything, I don’t feel I would experience this without the divine.

Yes the mundane uses maths, science is probably the best way to explain the mundane and therefore maths is also an excellent way to explain the findings of science.

Numbers in the spiritual realm
are used in a variety of ways, as I’ve pointed out the cult of Pythagoras probably took this to the mot extreme, but things like Gematria are used to give another level of understanding. If you consider the phrase “let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man his number is 666/616” is probably the most earthly and obvious take on this but there are whole books using Gematria to interpret the Bible - numbers have meaning 7 is completeness, 40 is to be cleansed etc etc. numbers are music which connect to the spheres etc. 12 is the connection of earth to the heavens.

im not saying any religions divinity is false,
saying all of them are true.

Oh absolutely they are part of a persons imagination- I’d refer you to Coleridge’s poetic imagination in his biography

so nothing then. understood.

If you think it’s nothing, you haven’t understood at all. But then, I wouldn’t expect anything else

No, you haven’t. You said:

Where one considers that there is a spiritual realm then there is a position that personal experience trumps scientific methodology

That doesn’t answer my question.

Why does YOUR moment of clarity in realising you believed in a deity and a spiritual world, count as proof, whereas an atheist’s moment of clarity in realising that they don’t believe deities and the spiritual world, does not count as proof.

An atheist is not always using scientific methodology to decide the spiritual realm doesn’t exist. They BELIEVE the spiritual world doesn’t exist. Literally no difference there at all.

You've got a lot of big words but you’re merrily avoiding this question.

How come you always state anyone posting an atheist view is wrong, but you don’t accept that you may be incorrect. There is no god, heaven, hell or resurrection. Walking on water didn’t happen, neither did any virgin birth.

The key fact you seem incapable of appreciating is that many atheists have a belief, just as you do. It’s just that their belief is the opposite of yours. That doesn’t mean it is any less of a belief.

I don’t fully understand a lot of physics and so while I understand the basic concepts of quantum physics, I don’t understand it in enough detail for the scientific proof to be an absolute for me. I just like watching Brian Cox trying to explain it to me.

But I do know that there is a very solid, core belief within me that the spiritual world does not exist. It’s just as deeply held and key to my understanding of the world as a religious person’s belief in the spiritual world.

Oh I’m with you that those last two are unlikely to have happened literally. I answered the othe point upthread

i think these things absolutely are truths

And an atheist thinks that the non existence of the spiritual world are absolute truths.

But we are constantly told atheism isn’t a belief it is the absence of belief, it seems like this is not your belief.

Do where does your belief that there is no spiritual realm come from? Is it just a rational conclusion based on physical evidence or lack thereof, or some other place?

Hopefully I’ve now clarified this, if not let me know I’ll have another go. I’m not avoiding anything.

But we are constantly told atheism isn’t a belief it is the absence of belief, it seems like this is not your belief.

Who says that? That’s not what it is for me. My personal atheism is a firm belief that the spiritual world is not real.

Do where does your belief that there is no spiritual realm come from? Is it just a rational conclusion based on physical evidence or lack thereof, or some other place?

Where does your belief that there is a spiritual realm some from? Is it a conclusion based on physical evidence, or some other place?

Mine comes from some other place, I guess. I know it is a belief, though. Saying atheism is a lack of belief works from the presumption that believing in the spiritual world is the right thing, and not believing in it is the wrong thing, a lack of something.

You really haven’t answered it at all. All you’ve basically said is you’re right, and atheists are wrong.

Practically every thread where someone claims to be an atheist we are told atheism is a lack of belief.

My belief that there is a Siri that realm comes from experience in the spiritual realm.

So where is this “other place” your firmly held belief there is no spiritual realm come from?

That isn’t what I’ve said at all. So I’ll try again.

If you only believe in the mudane, your conclusions must surely be based on mundane methods? What else is there. People who only believe in the mundane have repeatedly said they require evidence/proof. This evidence/proof appears to be of a scientific nature. Now you are claiming your views come from “some other place” where is that? Are you saying that information can be downloaded from no where?

When one believes in a spiritual realm it is perfectly feasible within that framework that knowledge is received directly from that realm, it does not require proof.

Atheism of itself is merely an absence of belief in any gods.

Atheists can come at this from any direction, whether through doubt or certainty. To try and pretend you can't understand this is a bit childish, but pretty much what I'd expect having read these threads...

It comes from within me. As a conscious being who can make her own decisions and form her own opinions.

There are undoubtedly things that have happened in my life that you would interpret as being a sign from the spiritual realm. But as I don’t believe in the spiritual realm, I don’t interpret them this way.

The thing is, I don’t believe that I am right about the spiritual world. I am right for me, and I am happy and comfortable with my beliefs. I am aware that many people do believe in the spiritual world. I tend to do people with different belief systems the courtesy of not telling them they are ‘silly’ or ‘fantasists’, so you might want to extend the same courtesy to people with different belief systems and not call them mundane or blinkered.

I haven’t called anyone blinkered, the mundane simply means not spiritual which I believe is an accurate description of an atheist.

I don’t think I’ve said anyone is “wrong” I have said scientific methodology isn’t suitable to be applied to the spiritual realm.

So where does this feeling within you come from?

I agree - I can make my own decisions - they come from me as an independent thinking human being. No external spirits or forces involved.

From everything I’ve read on these threads there is nothing which makes me think my life would be better if I had a faith.

And that, I can understand. It is a rational
decision based upon the weighing up of evidence, this fits in with your world view, that there is nothing more than the mundane world.

But @TheHorneSection said her strong belief came from “some place else”
im trying to ascertain where this “someplace else’s” is.

As an atheist would you say that atheism is a lack of believe in a spiritual world or the belief that there is not a spiritual realm. I think it’s an important distinction.